To ask Radical Feminists about their views on BDSM?

[BeeDeeEssEm]

Name changed (though I'm not a troll / intentionally goady! Also ignore my silly username haha!).
This was just something I was mulling over and I thought; "I know, I'll ask Mumsnet."

I know Mumsnet has a large community of feminists (particularly Radical Feminists, apologies in case that term causes offense (?) but I'm not sure how to put it otherwise). I was wondering what the views on consensual BDSM are? A lot of it contains choking / aggression towards women but I was wondering if that is nullified by the consensual or enjoyment aspect.

Full disclosure I'm in my twenties and so things like BDSM are relatively normalised for me, but I know my mum was very anti-BDSM and she spoke about it a lot when I was in my teens (MN would probably like her & her other views I think!)

Sorry if that's a weird thing to ask, just curious for curiosity sake. I haven't formed an opinion of my own about it yet, and I only really hear Liberal Feminist perspectives on BDSM (and other sexual topics). Also sorry if this has already been done to death, I'm not sure!

Thanks Flora, I haven't come across Leidholt before, I'll have a look.

Great thread everyone to all who have been victims of abuse or despair

Sorry OP I didn’t mean to suggest that you should wheesht. What you have to say is very interesting, I just meant that I didn’t want to steamroll your thread with text but it seems I did.

@veeeeh
This morning I read a few articles about this case. Hair raising stuff.

@BeeDeeEssEm don't worry about discussing your own experiences - someone upthread quoted Audre Lourde, "The personal is the political."

I agree with whoever it was upthread who asked you to think about what sort of man you're attracting? Ursula Benstead's shark cage metaphor is really useful. A past history of abuse (especially during childhood) means you either never got help building/ now have a damaged shark cage. And abusers are like sharks - they can smell blood in the water from miles away.

Back when I was about 30 I had a breakdown and a bad period of depression. I can honestly say that in that (mercifully short) period I had more male attention than in the rest of my life put together. And every single one was a wrong 'un! It honestly felt like I was wandering around with "damaged, vulnerable woman - abusers form an orderly queue here" tattooed across my forehead.

(As an aside - to the poster who said "I had these interests by the age of 20, before I even knew BDSM was a thing": the eroticisation of male violence and female submission to male violence is ubiquitous. Even if all you've seen as a kid is James Bond films from the Connery era it's all around you. Your urges probably didn't come from nowhere, they were part of a culture that surrounds all of us. There may well be more to it physiologically that means you responded to this culture - but seriously, it's not that you can unequivocally say "it must be innate because I'd never even heard of BDSM." Even if you'd never heard the phrase BDSM, you were exposed to the concept. It's everywhere - from Rhett Butler carrying Scarlet upstairs mid row to "ravish her into submission" through to Bond throwing Pussy Galore into the hay and raping her - a rape that she - surprise, surprise -enjoys).

I agree with @CaraDuneRedux.
I'd also add that the video games and cartoons I watched seemed to usually feature a female character who was so ravishing or helpless she was captured. The hero usually saved her (or in the 80s sometimes she saved herself).
Princess Peach, Penelope Pitstop, Thumbelina, Princess Jasmine, Belle etc.

So this started on AIBU - how did it end up on FWR - there is no 'message from above'?

Starting reading the Shark Cage, referenced above, got to the point where the author ponders that a hunting 'sharks' would have listened Jordan Peterson. What's he like, that Jordan Peterson and his many helpful practical tips to roving apex predator abusers. What a hoot !

I think a person who gains any pleasure from knowingly inflicting pain or fear in another person is disturbed and potentially dangerous and should probably devote their efforts to extinguishing that impulse rather than cultivating it. Even if that takes a lifetime.

@YetAnotherSpartacus

So this started on AIBU - how did it end up on FWR - there is no 'message from above'?

I think one of the AIBU regulars said "Why isn't this in FWR?" so OP asked to have it moved, Spartacus.

I agree Barracker. This push back against "kink shaming" is a boon for abusers. Rather than encouraging BDSM and getting deeper into it, both the abuser and the person being abused should try to resolve what they are doing.

The ones who are playing at abuse with safe words etc. should consider why they want to act out other people's real life abuse for an orgasm.

BeeDeeEssEm I'm wondering why my opinion would be more valid than your Mums? What does she think about BDSM, and have you asked her why she thinks that, or did you just assume she's too vanilla to know what she's talking about?

Thank you for contributing everyone!

I'm wondering why my opinion would be more valid than your Mums? What does she think about BDSM, and have you asked her why she thinks that, or did you just assume she's too vanilla to know what she's talking about?

I've not said it is more valid, I'm just interested in multiple opinions. She thinks BDSM is unethical for similar reasons to porn in that it hurts women and it's unhealthily normalised. I didn't assume anything, but people are assuming quite a lot about me (seemingly based on age) in this thread.

www.verywellmind.com/how-bdsm-might-benefit-your-health-and-your-relationship-4846462

Apparently it's good for us

I saw a yt clip of a young woman (on webcam) discussing choking with men. She said she liked it. One of the men asked, with a chuckle, yeah but what if she "doesn't come back"? Is that like a euphemism for "what if I kill her?" WTF. The flippant attitude to potentially killing a woman was pretty disgusting.

If the participants of BDSM are responsible, regardless if it's people in a relationship, sexwork (a professional dominatrix and client) or just people who meet up to engage in it then they will communicate with each before doing anything to make it clear what each person wants and doesn't want, and things like safewords and limits etc

If someone does something the other person doesn't want or keeps doing something after the other person wants them to stop, then that would be abuse (or rape if it happens to involves sex).

IMO BDSM itself isn't a problem, the problem can be people who are abusive by intentionally doing something against the wishes of another or people who may mean well but are just irresponsible and haven't researched or communicated properly.

If you want to whip/be whipped for example, the person doing the whipping needs to take into consideration all the types of whips (make sure it's designed for BDSM and not an equestrian whip designed for a thick-skinned horse for example!) and which would be best suited, the areas of the body suitable for whipping (eg avoid the lower back where the kidneys are), and exactly what the recipient wants.

IMO it's one of these things where an outright ban just wouldn't work as there are lots of people and a wide variety of people who like to take part and are going to take part regardless. I think better education, a "harm reduction" approach on how to get the most out of it with minimal risk would be the best approach.

@Barracker

I think a person who gains any pleasure from knowingly inflicting pain or fear in another person is disturbed and potentially dangerous and should probably devote their efforts to extinguishing that impulse rather than cultivating it. Even if that takes a lifetime.

THIS!

I think a person who gains any pleasure from knowingly inflicting pain or fear in another person is disturbed and potentially dangerous and should probably devote their efforts to extinguishing that impulse rather than cultivating it. Even if that takes a lifetime

What you give your attention to grows......it does not recede.

Slightly off the exact topic, but the sheer numbers of men we now see being prosecuted for accessing images of child abuse - is a clear indication, if ever one was needed, that exposure to certain types of imagery or experience, leads into an inevitable negative spiral.

The idea that you can heal yourself from repeated exposure to the original site of the trauma - just doesn't wash. What it really does is numb you to the pain and its consequences - thus the need to forever keep pushing at boundaries in search of response and feeling.

It seems like an awful lot of hard work in pursuit of an orgasm.

Has anyone seen the news relating to Armie Hammer's violent fetishes? I'm reading the thread on him now, not sure if it's OK to post a link to that thread?

I have. I did think about this thread. If the allegations are true (and the social media posts genuine) then he clearly gets off on fetishising extreme violence against women and degrading women for his own sexual pleasure. I think since the story is in the public domain and being reported on by news outlets it would be harsh if you couldn't share.

This is from the DM article:

"Earlier this week, Hammer's ex-girlfriend Courtney Vucekovich told DailyMail.com that Hammer was into 'master-slave fetishes' and told her he wanted to break and eat her ribs.
She said Hammer quickly manipulated her into playing along with his twisted fetishes, and that he would often fantasize about cannibalism.
Although Vucekovich said she did not want to get into graphic detail about Hammer's behavior during their relationship, she said it was enough that she checked into a 30-day intensive course of therapy for trauma and PTSD to deal with the 'warped relationship' with the movie star after their breakup in early October."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9147239/Armie-Hammer-shows-lingerie-clad-woman-waiting-fours-bed.html

Armie Hamer's Shotgun Wedding role to be recast amid social media scandal: variety.com/2021/film/news/armie-hammer-shotgun-wedding-controversy-leaked-dms-1234884988/

He denies the allegations and says it's a campaign against him: www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-55658896

@BeeDeeEssEm I'm a Millennial so maybe a bit older than you? Not sure.

I would say that if a woman into BDSM then ok, whatever, but I would caution any woman who goes after, or happens to be in a relationship with a man who likes choking.

I don't care how polite, mature, or kind to animals that man is or that he gives to charity. One has to ask an uncomfortable question - why does this man enjoy choking women? What does he get out of it? There are some men who might do it because their partner has asked them to, so for them it's about doing what their partner enjoys (although I would still warn any man off doing that for his own sake if nothing else). However, some men are the instigators of it and it turns them on.

Why?

Why would depriving another human being of oxygen, the air they need to breathe be erotic eh? Why would choking them so they are no longer able to speak be appealing for a man? I would say the answer is pretty obvious but a lot of women don't want to look at their partner and think that they could be a much darker, twisted individual than they realised.

Also, one thing I heartily dislike about quite a few member of the BDSM community, and it's spreading, is this snobbery and distaste for what they call 'vanilla sex'. Every time I hear that I want to go 'What, you men just sex then? Sex that doesn't involve toys or equipment? Sex that isn't all about power play or pain?

Some of this snobbery is a defence reaction for being judged for liking what they do (similar to how some people who don't want to have children call people 'breeders' or other derogatory terms for wanting to have children), but some of them have a disdain for anything that doesn't involve the features mentioned above. If you don't like those things, fair enough, but don't be snobby towards people who is what I think.

Also, I read a bit of research a while ago which seemed to dispel the myth that men somehow like the opposite things in bed than what they're really like in real life. For example, the image of the powerful CEO type who's dominant and ruthless figure who likes to be spanked and told what to do in bed is the exception rather than the rule. People's sexual preferences tend to be aligned with their general character, not be the opposite of them. I say this to dispel any ideas like 'My boyfriend is really lovely and sweet. He gets on really well with my parents and he'd like to get married and have a lovely family life one day...........but he really likes to call me a fucking whore and a bitch during sex. He often grabs my hair when he's in the moment so that it hurts and sometimes I have marks where he's grabbed me. I wonder if sometimes he gets turned on by the fact that I don't know what he's going to do. I don't know why he does this. He's a really lovely guy otherwise.'

Mmmmm......no. I really fucking doubt that.

For example, the image of the powerful CEO type who's dominant and ruthless figure who likes to be spanked and told what to do in bed is the exception rather than the rule.

Apologies - posted too soon. There are plenty of examples of that in the public domain Earth. You don't have to do too deep a search to find high profile cases.