To ask Radical Feminists about their views on BDSM?

[BeeDeeEssEm]

Name changed (though I'm not a troll / intentionally goady! Also ignore my silly username haha!).
This was just something I was mulling over and I thought; "I know, I'll ask Mumsnet."

I know Mumsnet has a large community of feminists (particularly Radical Feminists, apologies in case that term causes offense (?) but I'm not sure how to put it otherwise). I was wondering what the views on consensual BDSM are? A lot of it contains choking / aggression towards women but I was wondering if that is nullified by the consensual or enjoyment aspect.

Full disclosure I'm in my twenties and so things like BDSM are relatively normalised for me, but I know my mum was very anti-BDSM and she spoke about it a lot when I was in my teens (MN would probably like her & her other views I think!)

Sorry if that's a weird thing to ask, just curious for curiosity sake. I haven't formed an opinion of my own about it yet, and I only really hear Liberal Feminist perspectives on BDSM (and other sexual topics). Also sorry if this has already been done to death, I'm not sure!

Why is it when any other group is described as "radical" it means they've taken up arms and violence to further thier course.

But for feminism it always seems to be used in reference to Internet talking

@WiltingAtTreadmills

Why not ask in the Feminism section then? Or is it sado-masochism making you post in aibu...

Okay controversial view but whatever:

I think the current upswing in BDSM has fuck all to do with genuine curiosity and is just another symptom of the way in which women's status and empowerment is moving backwards.

I put it up there with the whole twerking, fillers, hyper sexualised music industry, overly feminised attitude to womanhood that has been emerging over the past decade. It's no coincidence IMO that women being pressured into porn star-like fashion trends aligns with a rise in BDSM interest and young men thinking stuff like choking and anal are "standard".

It's just about women existing for male pleasure.

Note: yeah I know there are people who geninely get off on sub/dom stuff and that's good for them

Crotctchburn you are so right & songs such as WAP , some young women thing it’s empowering, but it’s the complete opposite.

I don't think you need to be a radical feminist to agree with @BeansMeansWines and @CrotchBurn do you? Or maybe I am. Because I do.

Yes - it's all just for men's pleasure, and somehow women are believing they are empowered .

And also ime bdsm is frequently used by abusive men.

IME it's been adopted by abusive men, helped along by 50 shades of grey, and they use it as a socially acceptable way to abuse a woman.

How many women have been killed because of a bdsm 'accident'? I think it was 17 last year.

In my day, bdsm was very much a fetish community, and it was far more common to have women in the domme role and men being subservient.

I know Mumsnet has a large community of feminists (particularly Radical Feminists, apologies in case that term causes offense (?) but I'm not sure how to put it otherwise). I’m quite interested in why you think Radical Feminist might be an offensive term?

As previous poster's have said BDSM and the sort of nasty porn sex (choking, spitting, etc) are not the same thing.
I have been in kink relationships and in my last one I got cooked for, my nails done/hair washed by partner all as part of the dynamic.
Its a big spectrum

Ok here's my two pence based on my own experience (been there, done it, got the t-shirt etc.)

I think it's no coincidence that many young women are going in for this. Women wanting to be dominated in sex is often symptomatic of having little confidence and agency in the bedroom. It's easy to just copy what you see in porn and go along with what the guy is doing. It's also easy to "get off" on the taboo of BDSM rather than actually figure out what really works for your body. It may sound very cool and progressive and liberating but women being sexually dominated by men is as old as the hills.

What's a lot more modern (and risky) is women taking control of the situation and asking for things, especially when it requires selflessness on the part of the man. Women being given the space and freedom to explore their natural bodies, rather than seeing themselves through the lens of the male gaze. Women being able to examine how culture and socialisation has shaped our desires and to connect with something a bit deeper.

TL:DR - the current obsession with male domination of women in the bedroom is stifling the ability of women to explore female-centric sex and I think it's a shame.

It's rather a big group of people to lump together!

For a start, not all of us are in 'the scene', for many of us, it's a private part of a monogamous relationship. That's the category in fall into. Yes I occasionally might fantasize about going to them parties etc, but they aren't compatible with the monogamous lifestyle we choose, so we don't.

I have no problem (most of the time) in reconciling the feminist part of me and the kinkster part of me. We are also both very switchy , so our roles are interchangeable. So one day I might be wielding the whip, the next day him (if only it were that frequent, but small children and lockdown make things tricky).

We also have a very equal relationship aside from sex, in terms of households rules, so there aren't any underlying power issues with us. As with most people I know who are truly into BDSM (as opposed to those using it as an excuse for violent tendencies) are very respectful of eachother and each others boundaries.

I am concerned though at the normalisation of violent porn, and think there is too much pushing of women towards BDSM by men, rather than it being a mutual interest, and that is concerning. Partially because it makes it easier for abusers, and secondly because those individuals are less likely to 'play' within acceptable rules and boundaries in terms of what is safe (for mental as well as physical health).

As far as choking/breath play goes, I do some of this (both ways), but only on the very mild side, and more to create the perception of it, rather than actually, if that makes sense. It's not something I think of lightly though (or anything that actually involves risk) and I fear for people in abusive relationships where this plays a part, whether under the illusion of kink or not.

The parties, not 'them parties' shudder

BDSM on the most part is men being the sissy/sub

If anything would the power not be empowering for a woman?

@CrotchBurn

Okay controversial view but whatever:

I think the current upswing in BDSM has fuck all to do with genuine curiosity and is just another symptom of the way in which women's status and empowerment is moving backwards.

I put it up there with the whole twerking, fillers, hyper sexualised music industry, overly feminised attitude to womanhood that has been emerging over the past decade. It's no coincidence IMO that women being pressured into porn star-like fashion trends aligns with a rise in BDSM interest and young men thinking stuff like choking and anal are "standard".

It's just about women existing for male pleasure.

Note: yeah I know there are people who geninely get off on sub/dom stuff and that's good for them

This is a brilliant post. 👏👏👏👏

This feels like a research question for a thesis, or a journalist looking for an article. Neither of which is really what AIBU is for.

It's very weird that you claim to be kink aware yet your total assumption on this post is that BDSM is male dom, fem sub. That's absolutely not the reality of the situation.

RACK/ SSC should be allowed to exist peacefully and privately without constant investigation from people outside of it.

It's very weird that you claim to be kink aware yet your total assumption on this post is that BDSM is male dom, fem sub. That's absolutely not the reality of the situation.

I agree that in the BDSM world it's traditionally been very different to what the OP is describing. But I do think that there's been a massive normalisation of female submissive sex to the extent that it has become the go-to for many young people. A close friend of mine is doing the tinder dating scene and says every single encounter has been like this (think choking, slapping, spitting etc.). I think some people are calling this BDSM but in reality it's just people copying what they're seeing in porn.

@carlaCox agree 100%.
I've used Tinder to meet men, almost all the under 30s want to act out the same shit nasty cishet male 'dom' stuff they see on porn, and that's the non kink ones.
It's very sadly, what they think sex is.

Socialized into BDSM because you're in your twenties?! I'm barely 30 and I certainly wasn't! I had a wild time in my mid-twenties traveling and drifting about for a few years (plenty of ONS/friends with benefits etc etc) and I never encountered anyone who was openly into BDSM and anyone who showed any such tendencies would be firmly placed in the "weirdo" category by me and my friends.

It's utterly depressing if women literally a few years younger than me are supposed to embrace this stuff as the "norm" all of a sudden? I have two DDs and I'll be trying my damndest to "socialise" them away from this crap!

Gosh, so many great posts on here.

From the article "internalised ‘romance’ narratives that eroticise female submissiveness and male dominance."

This is a huge issue for me. So many novels now involve men sexually dominating women. It develops our expectations, trains our brains into what we find romantic/sexy.
So many films and books portray as romantic behaviour which is creepy, stalkerish and abusive.
There's a lot of 'abusive man saved by love of a good woman' stuff as well.

It all trains young women up to be abused by men. I fell for it hook line and sinker, my erotic life is based on those narratives, but as an adult having given it considerable thought, it's shocking.

I have no issue with BDSM, between adults who have freely chosen to explore that element of their relationship- not because their partner will leave or seek sex elsewhere, not because their partner wants to and they want to please their partner, but actual independent free choice...as far as that exists given environmental influences!

I just doubt there's much of it about. That's why it was niche, I think.

It develops our expectations, trains our brains into what we find romantic/sexy.

I totally agree with this. I remember reading Twilight as a young person and thinking it was so romantic. Having since been in an abusive relationship I now find it incredibly disturbing. It's romanticising an extreme power imbalance where the woman is at the mercy of a dominating male and is interpreting his constant violation of boundaries as the ultimate expression of love. This is such a dangerous message to be sending young women.

The problem with BDSM for me is that, there is no other context in which he/she wanted me to hurt them is considered an acceptable defense for what can be quite extreme pain. For context there was a tatooist/body piercer who was jailed for assault because he had been committing quite extreme body modifications on his clients. Beaticians conducting medical cosmetic procedures without the relevant license/training can also be jailed. There was a manslaughter case a while ago where a woman died during as a result of illegal buttock implant surgery. In all these cases, the "victims" consented to what happened to them. In the case of the body piercing guy, all of his "victims" were against the police prosecuting him but it still went ahead (I actually disagree with this but whatever). If a woman is choked by her partner in the street and witnesses call the police they can charge him, even if she says she doesnt want to press charges/was asking for it. If a woman is choked by her partner during sex though, that is A-OK.

And I do agree that sex is a very personal, private thing so maybe different rules apply. However, there was a case recently where a woman was the victim of DV but a lot of it (not all) happened during sex. He would start hitting her while having sex, despite her asking him not to. He even filmed it. However, whilst the police originally purseued it it was dropped by CPS because they felt the fact that it much of it had happened during sex meant it could be defended as BDSM. Despite the fact she was on film begging him to stop.

There is a second level, on which I would find it very hard to inflict actual pain on my partner even if they wanted me to because I care about them and dont want to hurt them. So if a man asks if he can hurt you, even if you dont mind, have a think about what is going on with him where he doesnt mid this. I did self defense training and the (male) trainers were very obviously uncomfortable with the part where you lie down and they pretend to strangle you. Because its not a nice thing to do to another person, even when you are onlu simulating it and no actual pressure is applied.
If a man on a date is rude to the waiting staff, that is (rightly) considered a bad sign. But if later on they want to strangle/hurt you during sex, that is considered fine?

Perhaps when op says she was socialised into the normalisation of BDSM she means that she and her friends read/watched 50 shades of Gray.

Finally, actually, rape fantasies are common and entirely different to the real thing. The reason for this is that, if I fantisise about myself and Antonio Banderas/ an entire football team + Thor/ anyone really I am controlling what I do and what every single actor/character in my head is doing as well. It is the same as any non-secual daydream - the person doing the daydream is in COMPLETE control. Therefore, even if in the fantasy/daydream the "me" character is fighting someone, or being "ravished" (urgh) by e.g. Antonio Banderas, actual me is in complete control. No-one is being actually raped.
It is the kind of fantasy that is therefore impossible (and unwise) to enact in real life. It is also why the stereotype of BDSM used to be middle aged/older couples looking to spice up their sex life. Of course, long term relationships can be abusive, but ouside of that those very liong term relationships are the sort where you would have built up the trust necessary to experiment in that way.
Short term relationships/flings are never going to have the trust necessary to pursue that stuff in a way that is 100% physically and psychologically safe.

@carlaCox I think some people are calling this BDSM but in reality it's just people copying what they're seeing in porn.

In reality its just people being nasty, abusive shits and using the cover of BDSM to do so, because if it happens during sex its somehow more acceptable.

Hahahaha that's very funny! I'm not sure, honestly AIBU usually gains more traction
And this Is why AIBU is filled with nonsense. Its a dumping ground for everything!
Your question would get appropriate responses if you use the section that targets the people you are asking the question to.