To ask Radical Feminists about their views on BDSM?

[BeeDeeEssEm]

Name changed (though I'm not a troll / intentionally goady! Also ignore my silly username haha!).
This was just something I was mulling over and I thought; "I know, I'll ask Mumsnet."

I know Mumsnet has a large community of feminists (particularly Radical Feminists, apologies in case that term causes offense (?) but I'm not sure how to put it otherwise). I was wondering what the views on consensual BDSM are? A lot of it contains choking / aggression towards women but I was wondering if that is nullified by the consensual or enjoyment aspect.

Full disclosure I'm in my twenties and so things like BDSM are relatively normalised for me, but I know my mum was very anti-BDSM and she spoke about it a lot when I was in my teens (MN would probably like her & her other views I think!)

Sorry if that's a weird thing to ask, just curious for curiosity sake. I haven't formed an opinion of my own about it yet, and I only really hear Liberal Feminist perspectives on BDSM (and other sexual topics). Also sorry if this has already been done to death, I'm not sure!

yes BDSM stands for those words but it seems to have taken on a whole new meaning which centres around a community type thing with a set of rules.

That's interesting and news to me . I'll admit I'm a little intimidated to stray into that researching that side of things, but if it has a different connotation than what I think it does that probably changes the discussion quite a lot!

However you are correct that most of my friends (20s) want to be dominated in bed.

So does that suggest that domination is not considered BDSM or part of it? E.g. if there's domination in bed as you've put it, how would that be described other than BDSM?

Very engrossing post though, thank you for contributing themental

Nah.

*"I know a lot of my friendship circle are into choking / physical restrainment / various forms of sensory play etc"

Isn't all sex 'sensory play'?*

I mean like feathers, ice, all that jazz Though yes, I suppose you'd technically be right!

There is definitely a group of people who consider themselves to be the BDSM community. But the vast majority of people who are interested in or participate in bondage, submission and domination or sado masochism are not part of that community

So I figured BDSM was also a descriptor term for types of sex, but is it solely a group / community then? I think I've probably heard the term quite flippantly - I know there's the typical stuff like consent & safe words etc but I didn't realise it was a community that people would avoid even if they participated in some of the acts.

Terracottasaur excellent post

I think the level of violence and the feelings rellated to oneself must be very important. So, for example, if you can only get aroused, or mostly get aroused, by inflicting pain or having pain inflicted (or fear) I'd say that does say something very worrying and negative about your view of your 'self'.

If I found myself in that category, I'd seek help. If I were dating someone like that, I'd run a mile.

I am a feminist but I don't think anyone would call me radical.

I think you can gravitate to what is near you. So the more one hangs around with people for whom this
is a turn on, and engages with it, the more it becomes normal. The depreciating returns thing means maybe the violence gets more as time goes on, too.

To get that adrenaline hit.

If that is how people want to spend their time, they can but I do worry it is a lonely, negative route, and most likely not at all consensual for some.

It isn’t a matter of avoiding them. It’s like I read books but I am not in a book club, don’t plan to be and don’t look up their thoughts.

Most people getting tied to the bed or whatever aren’t going to join a special community.

It's the fetishisation of male sexual violence against women. Even when it's done in a same sex couple or there's a female 'domme' or whatever it's still based on the same shit.

How can you fight your oppression if you've been taught to get off on it?

But I think we are in agreement OP. BDSM refers to everyone into those acts, not a ‘community.’

@BeeDeeEssEm

yes BDSM stands for those words but it seems to have taken on a whole new meaning which centres around a community type thing with a set of rules.

That's interesting and news to me . I'll admit I'm a little intimidated to stray into that researching that side of things, but if it has a different connotation than what I think it does that probably changes the discussion quite a lot!

However you are correct that most of my friends (20s) want to be dominated in bed.

So does that suggest that domination is not considered BDSM or part of it? E.g. if there's domination in bed as you've put it, how would that be described other than BDSM?

Very engrossing post though, thank you for contributing themental

I said I'd go but actually this is the most fun post I've read in AGES far better than whingeing about covid or teachers. Who needs BDSM when you've got all that going on.

My genuinely parting comment this time - why not go retro. I'm sure whenever I turned the TV on after 10pm in the 90s there was BDSM on TV. Didn't Louis Theroux do a documentary, or was it Nick Bloomfield.

Also in the interests of feminism and equality you're only talking about men dominating women. Maybe look up femdom instead - that way you get a balanced view.

Farewell!

PoleToPole excellent post. You have hit the nail on the head. I bet most (all) the serious injuries you see are women hurt at the hands of me. And those that are men have done it to themselves, and not suffered at the hands of a woman. Just a guess!

So does that suggest that domination is not considered BDSM or part of it? E.g. if there's domination in bed as you've put it, how would that be described other than BDSM?

I don't think it's described as anything other than domination, really?

It's a bit like how couples can sit on their sofa and bitch together about a movie, and even make a post about it on facebook, but they're not film critics, are they?

Or how I enjoy drawing but I don't define myself as an artist.

So you can get off on being tied up but you don't have to say you are "into BDSM". Or define yourself as being "into BDSM".

I once read a study that said one of the most common fantasies for females is "ravishment". So if I had to take a guess I'd say there were a fair amount of couples role playing exactly that in a safe and loving environment... and even though that involves one partner dominating and one partner submitting I don't think it's BDSM. It's not a lifestyle choice... it's just a sexual fantasy.

Thank you, and sadly that is an uncannily accurate guess Italiangreyhound, I have to say personally I find it revolting. I cannot see how anyone could see the damage, day in day out, and not find it revolting.

"But all of that cultural stuff is taking a back seat at the moment because of the legal changes around choking due to the women who have died."

So true Stripesnomore.

There was a webaite called something like We didn't consent to this. Terrible reading. All women killed by men who got to write the story after the woman's death.

I think it's more than a nasty grubby little part of life. It's men getting away with it with age old she asked for it

I once read a study that said one of the most common fantasies for females is "ravishment".

I have (in my typical nerdy fashion) looked up the definition of ravish which in this context was "to give great pleasure to someone". I figured this was a relatively normal sexual fantasy?

There's also the rape connotation of ravish, if that's what you mean, though I'd be quite surprised if that was the number one fantasy
( and not Antonio Banderas ).

I hear that about the distinction between participating in typical BDSM acts vs actually being part of the same community. Like being spiritual but not part of an organised religion (though I'm not sure either community would enjoy the comparison!)

PoleToPole thank you. I think it's very sad some women get sucked into this shit. In a effort to be cool. Or simply because they feel they cannot say no. And if they do die, they really cannot say anything.

Must go to bed. Night all. Stay safe.

@BeeDeeEssEm here you go, this was the article I read...

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/inews.co.uk/opinion/why-some-women-fantasise-about-forceful-sex-and-why-thats-nothing-to-be-ashamed-of-212098/amp

I think a natural power play between partners is normal and healthy.

I think violent BDSM is females socialised into it, completely wrong and the BDSM porn is a mask for violence against women. I think any consensual interaction of course can’t be stopped but should be subject to independently verified contracts. Because the criminal justice system is fucked by men claiming consent and men are twisted by the porn and use it as an excuse. As a survivor or an abhorrent extremely niche practices BDSM rape, when I have zero interest in BDSM I can tell you the police and CPS never hold them accountable because of the protests from the BDSM community. To protect the many, the few should have to jump through hoops.

Thank you, themental that's such an intriguing article! So it is about the power imbalance of sexual control then, I retract my Antonio Banderas statement!

I have a bit of that too personally but I don't think I ever thought that was normal / would have admitted it anywhere

Interesting the idea of blame avoidance; This theory suggested powerful cultural scripts about being promiscuous have caused many women to experience sexuality and desire as shameful. Therefore, fantasising about being forced allows women to enjoy sex without the stigma of being ‘slutty’.

It's quite disturbing that there's so much societal stigma around promiscuity that it will collectively normalise "ravishing" fantasies. Of course though, there shouldn't be any social stigma around fantasies at all. I also think it's quite interesting that sexual fantasies can directly disagree with conscious ethics though, like Jane's quote that said ‘I do feel guilty about it sometimes. I worry that it means I’m a bad feminist’. Not dissimilar to dreams in terms of conflict with satiation!

'Ravishment' means rape. 'forceful sex' means rape.

Rad fem here.

It’s important to realise that whatever decisions we make are not made in a vacuum. We are shaped by society. A patriarchal society.

I used to be a lib fem. whatever a woman chooses to do is a feminist action.

Then I realised that was BS. In general, if it doesn’t upset the patriarchy, it’s probably not actually feminism. If it’s ‘fun feminism’, that happens to give men what they want/like, it’s probably not feminism. Yeah, we’ve got choices but we can’t claim these choices so much for the rights of and respect for women as a sex class. Therefore sex work (prostitution), corsets (yes, I have one from my lib fem days), burlesque, BDSM, etc are not feminist and serve the patriarchy well.

Incidentally there was a brilliant article on Quilette about woke edgy activities in Hackney Wick (shibari, liquid love, naked yoga) and how they are just wank-fests for leftist men. You rarely see men getting tied up in shibari. It’s woke misogyny and perving.

Anyhow, I get turned on by some low level BDSM. I look hot in bright red Chanel lipstick. I’d be offered threesomes when I wore the corset. But I can’t pretend it’s feminist. It’s buying in to the patriarchy.

I wonder if liberal feminism would be pro-choice on foot binding if some women claimed it was empowering?

(Rambling. Should be asleep. Oops).

@LangClegsInSpace but none of these women want to be raped.... or did you not read the article?

@BeeDeeEssEm I think the blame avoidance theory is interesting... but maybe not so much in this current time? I wasn't around whenever that song "baby it's cold outside" was written, but I think that basically summed up the "tone" of the time i.e the woman was trying to save her reputation but actually really wanted to stay with him.

For me, personally speaking (and I've had many years to come to try to sort through the WHY)... I used to wonder if it was more the "bodice ripper" explanation below. The wanting to be wanted part. But I actually have pretty high self esteem and a high sense of self worth so... maybe not? IDK. It also occurred to me that I had those types of thoughts before I even really understood what sex was, before I had been exposed to porn or anything of that nature. So the argument that society is shaping all of these women doesn't ring true for me.

Still I find it interesting, and definitely not as black and white as a lot of people with absolutely no experience of having these thoughts seem to want it to be.

And FWIW I am a feminist. I don't think I'm radfem but I am gender critical and agree with a lot of what people say on the fem boards.

'Ravishment' means rape. 'forceful sex' means rape.

Heard it in the legal context but not in the fantastical one!

I have never believed the promiscuity explanation for dominance (I’m not referring to more extreme and painful acts here).

It is far more likely it is due to the pretence that recreational sex has nothing to do with procreation and is just pleasure. Pregnancy is dangerous and life changing, unequally falls on women and is part of sex. I would speculate that the dominance element is a way of making that inequality explicit when we are socialised to create so much cognitive dissonance around the primary purpose of sex.

I think the blame avoidance theory is interesting... but maybe not so much in this current time? I wasn't around whenever that song "baby it's cold outside" was written, but I think that basically summed up the "tone" of the time i.e the woman was trying to save her reputation but actually really wanted to stay with him.

I think there's still quite a lot of social stigma. Not so much in the context of "wear too much lippy and you're a tart" or "pre-marital sex makes you unworthy", but there's still a lot of slagging off promiscuous women (or women you perceive to be promiscuous) especially amongst the younger generations. I've been out of high school for a good few years now, but I can't count the amount of rumours spread about my friends and I, despite being part of a more "sex positive" generation - or so we are labelled!

For me, personally speaking (and I've had many years to come to try to sort through the WHY)... I used to wonder if it was more the "bodice ripper" explanation below. The wanting to be wanted part.

Yes, I think there's probably a passion element to "ravishing" fantasies. To me, it's the same reason people fantasise about cowboys or young male models, maybe a desire to feel passionate in a sexual context (also why you don't usually fantasise about blobby Bob, your local IT guy! though fair play if that is what you fantasise about ). I think I've had a similar fantasy since I was very very young, I wonder where the potentially innate element comes from.

Still I find it interesting, and definitely not as black and white as a lot of people with absolutely no experience of having these thoughts seem to want it to be.

Yes, I think it's also quite tricky as discussing a taboo fantasy that potentially bears risk (e.g. sexually abusive men thinking women secretly want sexual assault due to public discussion of aforementioned fantasies) probably means it's not openly discussed. Actually weirdly comforted that it's not just me!

Did you say you were in your twenties?? Strange you have Antonio Banderas as your fantasy, would he not be your mum’s of gran’s even !

Did you say you were in your twenties?? Strange you have Antonio Banderas as your fantasy, would he not be your mum’s of gran’s even !

He was one of my first crushes, as the dad in Spy Kids not sure why he popped into my mind but think I've always enjoyed an older man anyway!