To ask Radical Feminists about their views on BDSM?

[BeeDeeEssEm]

Name changed (though I'm not a troll / intentionally goady! Also ignore my silly username haha!).
This was just something I was mulling over and I thought; "I know, I'll ask Mumsnet."

I know Mumsnet has a large community of feminists (particularly Radical Feminists, apologies in case that term causes offense (?) but I'm not sure how to put it otherwise). I was wondering what the views on consensual BDSM are? A lot of it contains choking / aggression towards women but I was wondering if that is nullified by the consensual or enjoyment aspect.

Full disclosure I'm in my twenties and so things like BDSM are relatively normalised for me, but I know my mum was very anti-BDSM and she spoke about it a lot when I was in my teens (MN would probably like her & her other views I think!)

Sorry if that's a weird thing to ask, just curious for curiosity sake. I haven't formed an opinion of my own about it yet, and I only really hear Liberal Feminist perspectives on BDSM (and other sexual topics). Also sorry if this has already been done to death, I'm not sure!

OP, I'm very sorry to hear you know yourself how self-harm can feel like the answer. Your insights neatly articulate the problem I've been developing with BDSM.

If you said the same, I would empathise with you and try to help you come up with alternative coping mechanisms to deal with your emotions.

That's the nub of it. It's usual to discuss harm reduction, and whether it will be possible to replace behaviours with non-harmful or less harmful alternatives. It is flatly acknowledged that these are not optimal coping mechanisms and the goal is to de-escalate it.

But if we change it to a sexual context, and there is actually pressure on men and women (but mainly women) to try more harmful, more serious activities. People are encouraged to escalate what they're doing under the guise of "you won't know if you're into it unless you try it". The question of whether it would improve someone's overall life, including their physical health, to develop a taste for more extreme BDSM acts, goes unasked, never mind answered.

Heaven forfend that anyone be "vanilla" so it seems the person who is "kinkiest" wins.

Sorry to hear that, OP. Have you seen your GP and sought professional help?

Yes, I have. Big trigger warning here though, nothing is really comparable or replaceable. I still get the impulse often irrespective of my own mental state. Even as I slowly get better, the desire is still there (probably due to childhood trauma and other affecting factors). A lot of people and groups advocate for stopping self harm, which I agree with, but there's a reason people self harm and it's rarely for shits and giggles. There has to be an equally or more efficient action to replace the negative or repressed feelings, else it's often not possible to stop without latterly higher risk like suicide.

I am not necessarily of the mindset of someone who fits into the BDSM culture (though I have unhealthy ingrained preferences for pain at the hands of a partner and an apathy towards my own boundaries) but I can understand why it would be hard to give it up. So, I guess I see it as there needs to be a rehabilitation process to weed out those who like pain for "good" reasons if there are such a thing (e.g. genuine enjoyment of the sensation, would do it independently of external stimulus or relationships) vs those who are doing it due to emotional harm or an inability to cope.

Sorry that was quite long!

Based on your last post. Are you SURE you're not me from 25 years ago???

Hahaha for your sake I hope not! How have the last 25 years been, any improvements?

That's the nub of it. It's usual to discuss harm reduction, and whether it will be possible to replace behaviours with non-harmful or less harmful alternatives. It is flatly acknowledged that these are not optimal coping mechanisms and the goal is to de-escalate it.

I hear that, I think it's often very difficult to disentangle true intention from other factors (e.g. childhood, previous sexual experiences, self esteem, desire to please etc) and so there is a serious mental risk to elements of BDSM, as well as the aforementioned physical ones. It's nowhere near as clean-cut as it seems, I hear you.

How have the last 25 years been, any improvements?
It was actually 15 years (I misstyped). But yes, my life is better than I could ever have imagined!

It was actually 15 years (I misstyped). But yes, my life is better than I could ever have imagined!

Aw that's lovely to hear! If you don't mind me asking, was it the self harm part you related to? I hope all is well with you and you're managing to cope and taking care of yourself

I will say though, and I apologise if I sound patronising. But the place you are in now (recovering but not recovered from self harm, childhood trauma etc) is an absolute magnet for a certain kind of man. Even if you dont tell people, some men can pick up on it instinctively and they are pretty much always bad news. For that reason I think you need to be very careful about checking for red flags whilst dating - even more careful than most. And I do think men expressing interest in BDSM is a red flag.

@BeeDeeEssEm

It was actually 15 years (I misstyped). But yes, my life is better than I could ever have imagined!

Aw that's lovely to hear! If you don't mind me asking, was it the self harm part you related to? I hope all is well with you and you're managing to cope and taking care of yourself

I was sort of tipping into an eating disorder as well although strangely I didnt admit it to myself until much much later (years after I had recovered). But my periods stopped completely for more than two years. Also I was practicing mild self harm (but nowhere obvious) and realised I needed to stop. I definately think I used harmful sex (and actually harmful behaviour generally) to replace it. So if you are tempted to do that... don't!

Heaven forfend that anyone be "vanilla" so it seems the person who is "kinkiest" wins.

This.

Also why the labelling of so much as BDSM and people have to be into it or not into it 100%.

It feels like everything has to be labelled nowadays. Once everything is categorised then everyone must be categorised accordingly. Then everyone must stay in their lane. I don't like it.

Does anyone have exactly the same kind of sex every time? Now that would be weird imo. Different days, different mood, different behaviours.

It used to be recognised that lots, maybe even most people, might sometimes have a entertaining time with their partner involving a bit of slap and tickle.

British humour has long been full of jokes around this normal behaviour. We laugh down the pub with our mates about it because we all recognise it as a thing that people do now and then. Chase me; spank me I've been naughty; darling take me roughly from behind; dressing up like a Roman gladiator or whatever.

It seems that now one must make a po-faced woke declaration that one is into the scene, be expected to reject every other option, be encouraged to be defined by it publicly(!) and expect over time to take that niche to extreme.

Bollocks to that.

Anyway can't spend any more time on Mumsnet Feminism boards tonight as DH might be up for pretending to be Conan the Barbarian seeing as Arnie's democracy speech gave me the fanny gallops by the end. Like a normal person. Joking not joking.

Yes, I definitely hear this and it's not patronising at all. I had a big episode of sexual self harm (mostly at 15ish) and that attracted many predatory characters. I've been in a LTR with a very lovely man for years now, but that comes with issues of it's own, especially as I'm not cured nor have I found an efficient coping mechanism avoiding self harm yet.

I was sort of tipping into an eating disorder as well although strangely I didnt admit it to myself until much much later (years after I had recovered). But my periods stopped completely for more than two years. Also I was practicing mild self harm (but nowhere obvious) and realised I needed to stop. I definately think I used harmful sex (and actually harmful behaviour generally) to replace it. So if you are tempted to do that... don't!

I have admittedly done all of that unfortunately, so I can definitely relate to your experiences. MASSIVE credit to you for being able to push through it, I hope all is well for you and you're managing to cope amongst this lockdown craziness

I think there needs to be more conversation around recovery from self harm (in a broader context than just cutting, involving eating disorders / sexually unhealthy behaviours / alcohol and drugs etc) because even though I made the conscious choice to not participate in these things there's nothing to replace them and that puts me in a very difficult position. I imagine that a similar thing can potentially be said for those who use sexual self harm as a coping mechanism, there's no solidified "get out" strategy. There's the occasional advice of "get counselling" but that's about it and it's often not even close to being enough. I don't know what a good solution is, I wish I did both for myself and the sake of the arguemnt.

Sorry that first part of the post was in response to this: I will say though, and I apologise if I sound patronising. But the place you are in now (recovering but not recovered from self harm, childhood trauma etc) is an absolute magnet for a certain kind of man

I think healing is a process, and can take a long time. With luck we get incrementally better. Believing that there is one magic key that will solve everything is perhaps part of the problem, I suspect. More likely a lot of different things all help a little bit and we gradually, with luck, edge closer to living a healthy, content and productive life. That's possibly a life's work, figuring it out.

All I would say is: it is very much possible to heal. Don't give up trying. Keep gently asking yourself what you need; seek out steady, calm friends on the path. Look after yourself. Be gentle with yourself. Take your time. You have to slowly learn to listen to yourself.

I hope some of that makes sense, and bon courage!

Thank you, Arabella that's very kind of you to say
I agree it's definitely a process, albeit a long one, and there needs to be more clarity on what steps to take to get help. I for one, didn't know sexual self harm was even a thing until long after I participated in it so I can understand how the BDSM & anti-kink-shame movement can be harmful to people who are using it in an unhealthy manner.

This thread has solidified quite a few of my opinions, it's very interesting.

BeeDeeEssEm I came on the thread to talk about rad fem thinking on BDSM but I can see this is a very personal thread for you. It might still be interesting for you to have a look at some rad fem writing on the topic as part of your processing.

This is interesting: (7 pages)

www.mediafire.com/?6lcyid9dchi5bdi

It's an essay by Dorchen Leidholtd from The Sexual Liberals and the Attack on Feminism published in 1990.

These were written 30 years ago and I think we are seeing the realisation of the concerns they were talking about. It's clear that so-called "kink" or nonconformist sexual activities were not even really taboo or non-conforming back then, let alone today, in the context of women's sexuality in patriarchal society.

Talking about violent sexual fantasises reported by "pro-sex" feminists she says:

"we have to look beyond the fantasies themselves to the culture in which they develop. It is not just coincidence that they imitate the violence men do to women and girls. Think about the implications for our sexuality of the following statis tics: More than a third of us were sexually abused as children (Russell, 1984). For many of us, our first sexual experience was a sexual assault. Forty-four percent of us will be raped (Russell, 1984). The environment in which we learn about and experience our bodies and sexuality is a world not of sexual freedom but of sexual force. Is it any surprise that it is often force that we eroticize? Sadistic and masochistic fantasies may be part of our sexuality, but they are no more our freedom than the culture of misogyny and sexual violence that engendered them."

"The inescapable fallacy of the sexual repression thesis, as applied to women by the pro-sex people, is that it looks at sexuality within a context of largely mythical sexual restrictions and outside an environment of real, ongoing male sexual exploitation and abuse. In doing so, it turns what is done to women's sexuality by external oppression into something we do to ourselves in our heads. It suggests that if only women can break through internal "taboos," we will have sexual freedom, indeed we will be free. It ignores the real political lesson of women's sexual experience: women cannot have sexual freedom, or any other kind of freedom, until we dismantle the system of sexual oppression in which we live."

Also this from Audre Lorde:

noproncollective.blogspot.co.uk/2007/05/audre-lorde-sadomasochism-in-lesbian.html

"Leigh: What about the doctrine of “live and let live” and civil liberties issues?

"Audre: I don’t see that as the point. I’m not questioning anyone’s right to live. I’m saying we must observe the courses and implications of our lives. If we are talking about feminism then the personal is political and we can subject everything in our lives to scrutiny. We have been nurtured in a sick, abnormal society, and we should be in the process of reclaiming ourselves, not the terms of that society. This is complex. I speak not about condemnation but about recognizing what is happening and questioning what it means. I’m not willing to regiment anyone’s life. If we are to scrutinize our human relationships, we must be willing to scrutinize all aspects of those relationships. The subject of revolution is ourselves, is our lives.

"Sadomasochism is an institutionalized celebration of dominant/subordinate relationships. And, it prepares us either to accept subordination or to enforce dominance. Even in play, to affirm that the exertion of power over powerlessness is erotic, is empowering, is to set the emotional and social stage for the continuation of that relationship, politically, socially and economically.

"Sadomasochism feeds the belief that domination is inevitable. It can be compared to the phenomenon of worshipping a godhead with two faces, and worshipping only the white part on the full moon and the black part on the dark of the moon, as if totally separate. But you cannot corral any aspect within your life, divorce its implications, whether it’s what you eat for breakfast or how you say goodbye. This is what integrity means.^

Brilliant post @FloraFox

That's absolutely fascinating, FloraFox, thank you!

Sorry I didn't mean at all to derail with my own personal issues, I'd love to keep talking about BDSM on the whole. Fire away, I'll wheesht

Interesting quotes, Flora, ta for sharing.

I can definitely see how it can be trauma related in some people, or a way of self harming.

But I have never had a desire to self harm.
I've never been treated badly by men (I appreciate how fortunate I am with this)
I have never experienced anything even coming close to trauma.

I had a pretty closeted childhood, which meant that I didn't even know of the existence of BDSM until I was about 20. By that point (still a virgin) I had experimented with tying myself up, and had no idea it was even a 'thing' that other people did, I just knew I liked it. Hadn't realised that I also like doing the tying at that point.

Sometimes people just like the sensations, or the feeling of power. It doesn't have to be abusive, though I do agree that those lines get blurred far too much.

OP 

There are many excellent posts here and I hope you find them helpful. I also hope you are able to tap in to what truly makes you happy and fulfilled in your sexual relationships.

I fear we are all of us too conditioned to believe that force is an attractive, even necessary aspect of sexual relations. I believe this is because of centuries of patriarchy. I believe rape has been used to control and subordinate women and in subordinating women you are able to remove them from power structures. I think rape and ravishment was as much a means of control in BC Rome, or medieval France as it is in modern (20th/21st century culture). It is the rape in Tess of the Durbevilles. It is the romanticisation of the Marquis De Sade. It is the uncomfortable, "passionate" sex scene between Sean Young by Harrison Ford in Blade Runner. It is every woman in literature or on screen resisting and then being overcome or acquiescing (there are too many to count). We are all raised to believe that this is sexy, that force is simply a part of the interplay between lovers (particularly those adventurous non boring ones). We are conditioned to believe this is so. What is it supposed to demonstrate to us? That we are weak and men are powerful, that domination is their right and subordination is our natural state. That we must bend. I don't doubt that women find this interplay sexy, but let's not forget that we are taught that it is, conditioned to believe it, from a very young age - it is every "he kissed her too hard" or he "pushed his hand up too far" in teen literature.

As has been pointed out I always thought BDSM was mainly for men who got a sexual kick out subverting those roles. When you're the superior biological sex class there's pleasure in being subordinate for a while, before you put your suit back on and go back to your desk in the city and laud it over everyone again. I don't think the "BDSM" that is so prevalent nowadays, that seems so often to involve choking women (particularly in easily available porn) resembles this. It resembles the same old subordination. Women may find pleasure in their degradation, but they shouldn't be under any illusion that they haven't always been expected to do just that.

"How many women (and possibly men) are agreeing to participate in BDSM because they think it’s expected of them, or because they feel peer / societal pressure to be sexually adventurous and willing to try anything. How many are trying to please a partner who has grown up watching violent porn? How many have watched violent porn themselves and found it becomes normalised?"

Good question Terracottasaur

OP , recovery is always possible, there is not always a way back, but there can be a new path forwards. Nobody is the same person after trauma, but that doesnt mean you cant be happy with yourself.

Honestly, I think a lot of BDSM and rad feminism are very tied together, I do not know a single one of my female colleagues who would ever see it as anything other than abuse, and disgusting.

You just cannot try and patch women up day after day, see their trauma over and over and listen to their distress and not find it utterly revolting, knowing that some creep somewhere got off on doing this to them.

I don`t have words for how sick that is, and how much these poor women are taken advantage of. It would be a huge red flag to me if anyone got off on hurting or wanting to hurt people.

For all those with relatives, friends or themselves abused in such situations you have my heartfelt sympathies, not that it counts for much from a stranger on the internet.

Sorry, its been a long day and I didn`t word that very well. By tied together I meant that they will always be at odds, how can they not be? Its also pretty disturbing that the idea of not wanting women to be abused constitutes radical feminism. Protecting women from being killed and maimed? What a novel idea!

Hecate interesting points.

In her essay, Leidholtd says something along the lines that people could be socialised to eroticise banging their head on a wall. I agree with that.

Those essays are from the "sex wars" period between radical and "sex positive" feminists, which the SPs undoubtedly won. The most disappointing aspect of that is the use of feminism by the porn industry to portray BDSM as fresh or "empowering". It's as old as the hills and both reflects and reinforces male domination against women.

Great comment @PoleToPole. @BeeDeeEssEm all the best to you and I hope you find peace and healing in the future 💐

May have been said already, but look up Graham Dwyer. She died, he is in prison for hopefully a long time now. He was the Master, she was the slave, but the poor girl had issues. Bless her.

He is appealing of course at taxpayers funding. Ireland for those who may not have heard. Yes Holy Catholic Ireland. Who knew?