I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

Not GC, but the general agreement on here seems to definitely be that Caster Semenya is a man - woman is a chromasome thing in the GC viewpoint. It's a very biological thing.

What evidence do you have that the subset of the male sex who identify as women are less likely to be violent or sexually abusive to females than other males?

Try the 'break it down for me' thread, which explains the GC position thoroughly.

Sport.....how can it ever be fair (or for some sports safe) for people genetically born male to compete with people who are genetically female?

Hi OP! What do you think makes someone a woman, or a man? How does a male person know he's female?

First of all, why are you positioning GC feminism as hostile to GNC women?

GNC stands for gender non-conforming. What is more gender non-conforming than the women of traditional feminism, a movement of women who over the years have insisted that we should have the right to vote, to go to university, that we should not submit to men in marriage, that we should break free of traditional female expectations? We are GNC women!

Secondly, "intersex women". How much do you actually know about variations of sexual development? Men and women with variations of sexual development are just that- men and women with medical conditions.

Would you dream of telling anyone else with a congenital genetic medical condition that they weren't human? It is exactly the same thing.

I would ask you to follow some people with intersex conditions on twitter and hear how they feel about having their bodies debated and discussed in a debate that has nothing to donwith them.

Welcome OP. Some questions to understand where you're coming from: What is your definition of a woman? What do you mean by 'trans rights'? Why are you conflating intersex with a movement that centres 'gender identity'?

@MichelleofzeResistance

Try the 'break it down for me' thread, which explains the GC position thoroughly.

This.

Questions for you:

1. Are you happy for trans women to take part in women’s sport? Even though by physiological they are bigger stronger and faster meaning women can not win and are likely to be injured?
2. are you ok with a trans woman, complete with penis to be placed in a women’s jail, full of vulnerable women?

Answers for you :

1. see points above
2. intersex is nothing to do with gender, it’s a medical condition. Let’s not conflate the two
3. A women is an human adult female. I have no idea what Caster Semenya condition is, and quite frankly I find discussing a single persons medical condition unacceptable. Plus , see point 2, being intersex is nothing to do with gender, it’s to do with sex.

I'd open a bottle of wine and enjoy the rest of Christmas

I’m happy to engage constructively.

1. because trans women are male, and being male is a risk factor when it comes to violence against women. Most trans women are not a threat, but nor are most men. The evidence is trans women follow male pattern offending.

Also, women have been conditioned to be on their guard when around men. For some this may be an issue of gender, so they fear trans men but but trans women. For many women, it’s a matter of sex so they fear and feel uncomfortable around male people.

I accept trans women are at risk of male violence though so it’s not as simple as “use the men’s”. I think it depends on the space being talked about.

2. intersex and trans is totally different.

3. isn’t caster semenya intersex?

What makes a woman is traditionally being female. Unless someone is intersex (which is different), it is not a difficult definition to follow.

I know transgender activism seeks to redefine “woman” (although to what, I’m not sure) but let’s not pretend there is any difficulty in identifying who falls into the category of adult human female.

Can I ask you:

1. I have been raped. Do I have to experience my trauma in a way that validates trans people? Or am I allowed to feel vulnerable and scared around someone with a penis?

2. do you accept women are oppressed based on their sex? If so, do you accept it is not bigoted to want to address sex based oppression?

3. do you agree that whatever JK Rowling said, the threats and abuse she received was unacceptable? If so, do you accept that the online transgender activists didn’t really seem bothered, and seemed to think her expressing views on gender they disagree with is a bigger problem than threats of violence against women?

It is really simple but has a few disparate parts, including but not restricted to

GC women are not anti trans. Most wholeheartedly believe that all trans people need and deserve protective rights

It's just that those rights cannot be, supercede or erase the sex based rights of women

Biology isn't about external genitalia. Sex is in every cell of your body. Insisting that anyone with DSD(intersex) proves that sex is a spectrum is deliberate obfuscation, always done from a point of ignorance or intent to deceive.

If you believe transwomen are women you MUST have a clear, logical and unambiguous explanation. Otherwise you are expecting the world to join you in your faith based beliefs.

1. transwomen in traditional female private spaces (changing rooms, toilets, refuges) minimal risk - although still risk with minimal surveillance due to the private nature of the environment. HOWEVER, a massive risk with self ID into private spaces, up skirting, voyeurism and sexual assault happen predominantly to women - with a woeful conviction rate - opening female spaces to male bodies without appropriate consideration of this is dismissive of experienced women's concerns.

*but not trans women. Sorry must proof read!

Oh wow, this sounds like the midnight misogynist.

Why Do You Keep Feministing

Discuss

Here OP, is this what you're after? Lemon Drizzle Cake Recipe

2. Intersex people are distinct in my feminism, they face absolutely uniques challenges with a medical condition. It really should be case by case as every person is an individual.

3. what makes a woman? If you can answer what is an adult perhaps we'll get somewhere?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?

Just read the board, OP. You sound ‘gravely misinformed’.

Do you think it is acceptable for a bloke with a penis to be standing next to you naked opposite you in a a) woman’s changing room b) in a woman’s prison cell?
Do you think men should win all the races?
Do you think you can safely send an 8 year old girl into a toilet area on their own if it is frequented by both men and women?
Most transwomen retain their penises, are bigger & stronger than women and retain male offending patterns of behaviour. All the woke speak does is hide the fact that women are being put in danger by all of this. Wear what you want by all means but you have to ask yourself why more and more men want to access women’s spaces? Old school transsexuals never wanted this, why now?

"So, I'm here to listen."

Really? Looks to me that you're here to collect screenshots.

How old are you?

Incidentally OP WHY is discussion desirable when your OP is so rude and disdainful of women who do not share your politics? Why should I invest time and energy in debating this with you on these terms? What do you intend for this to achieve?

I won't be chasing hares for your amusement. And if you are genuine, there may well come a time when you remember how rude you were about your mother on this forum, and regret it.

Are you pro women? Do you stand up for women’s rights? At what age did you decide that to be pro women was to be anti trans women - I assume you don’t consider trans men to be women?

Please explain what in your mind ‘makes’ a human being a girl or woman - and can the sexes change? Do you think that the fluffy concept that is ‘gender’ trumps bio sex?

Wow @borandukht I hope the paper is paying you overtime during the festive period.

Caster is a fella because MEN have XY he has XY so he is a man.

Happy goading .... oops I meant happy new year.