I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

Let me translate your OP:

Dear old bints, I think you're as stupid as my mum, why don't you explain yourselves to me at length?

Why don't you read some books, OP?

1. Transwomen retain male rates of offending. They are (on average) bigger, stronger and most retain male genitalia. I was raped by a ‘gender fluid’ male. I understand very clearly what threat males represent to me however they define their gender.

1. Intersex females are women and included in my feminism, intersex males are men and are not. I don’t think you understand what intersex (or feminism) means

1. Which parent gave birth to you? She’s female. Which parent impregnated your mother with his sperm? He’s male

Does a male soldier who has lost his genitals in an explosion turn into a woman? Surgery doesn’t change biology.

Also. I have a question for you. I was told on a dating site that I had to be prepared to suck lady dick and date a transwoman, even though I am heterosexual and am not attracted to people who either are, or present as, female. I was told that was transphobic.

Can you explain to me why I can’t decide with whom I want to have sex and why I am obliged to have sex with anyone if I don’t want to?

[quote OldCrone]www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?[/quote]

This 👆🏾

And maybe listen to the voices on the transwidows threads.

I'd love to know if lipstick alley get this kind of post

I hope that your mother reads this posts and recognises your writing style so she's emboldened in her point of view and doesn't cowl in fear of upsetting you.

I hope you dont encourage Misogny by referring to your mother as a 'karen', I hope you dont forget that women's rights is a continuous ongoing battle that is forged with every generation and every right won was not giving and that centering biological men in your feminism no matter the emotional connecting make no sense.

I hope you listen.

Books? What? Like paddington?

I hope she isn't over on Twitter claiming to have been 'piled on'.

I hope she is, especially if she links to this thread.

I think the goals of the rights movement have turned into own goals.

Here’s a thinker for you, OP. What and who do you think benefits from turning women against each other by encouraging the ageism that you demonstrate in your post? Is there anything about older womens feminism that you value? Have you ever read or thought about the concept of each generation of women having to rediscover feminism? How does denigrating motherhood (by being so dismissive of mumsnet as you are) benefit your feminism?

Also, would OP’s mum please make herself known

Love to be told I'm "misinformed" by somebody who doesn't know what Intersex means.

@plumpootle

Such brilliant responses. I really hope OP engages as I work with a lot of young people who agree with her and I would love to understand her position on the points raised.

Yes. I’m also happy to engage but OP needs to come back first.

Or even uses the term intersex sunset

Someone as well informed & ‘kind’ as the OP should surely know the correct term is DSD

So quickly after the thanksjkrowling finished too.....

Also, would OP’s mum please make herself known

There is a mum who has despaired of her daughter's views, who is wholly woke, TWAW, BLM, identity politics, intersectional feminist etc and quite active on Twitter. She has mentioned it once or twice including on the woke university children thread a few months ago.

I'm happy to engage because there are lurkers who will read and weigh up the arguments on each side.

It is though amusing that we have yet another young person whose trans activism seems to be motivated by them being angry at their mummy. OP, you wouldn't believe how often this pattern repeats itself.

Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?

What an illuminating question. You think this is “in the mind”. I hope from reading this thread you’ve learnt that it is facts and science which inform us. It’s the TRAs who talk about “feeling like a woman”. (I won’t say anymore or I will be deleted)

OP I have not read extensively on the subject, but what I have read appears to conflate gender and sex. And this for me is a real issue.

If born female then you are always female, regardless of gender identity or any surgery. Therefore why are some companies trying to be inclusive by saying things like "menstruators" when we can just say female? This doesn't have to be in conflict with trans people self id-ing.

This then answers a lot of subsequent questions. Sport, law on single sex spaces etc the differences between the sexes and the need to differentiate is already highly researched and evidenced.

As for gender identity itself, I can't pretend to understand the feelings that trans people have and I really do want everyone to be able to just be who they are without fear or rejection. But it seems that a lot of the trans dialogue actually pigeon holes feminine and masculine traits and therefore is against progression for women.

Also just a general comment... Cis women have shared life experiences. Trans women will have some shared experiences with cis women but clearly there are differences. We need to preserve the ability to differentiate between the two (in law, socially, medically etc), as the needs of each may overlap but are different.

I can no more become a man an I can become a cat.
Both require my basic DNA to be reformed and my body to reshape it's self.
I can wear a costume to look like a cat, but every last bing person would agree I am not a cat.
However you expect us to go along with that we can do this from one sex to the other to help someones mental health.
However your willing to colour shame someone over pretending a skin colour.
So to put it bluntly, we either pretend everyone gets to be who they want to be , or we accept that men can never be women.

@SophocIestheFox

I think the goals of the rights movement have turned into own goals.

Here’s a thinker for you, OP. What and who do you think benefits from turning women against each other by encouraging the ageism that you demonstrate in your post? Is there anything about older womens feminism that you value? Have you ever read or thought about the concept of each generation of women having to rediscover feminism? How does denigrating motherhood (by being so dismissive of mumsnet as you are) benefit your feminism?

Also, would OP’s mum please make herself known

I'm a bit scared it's one of mine, lol, as they are quite convinced my problematic stance on gender comes as a result of the Mumsnet brainwashing program.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd

I'm sure your mum also finds your stance on the issue exhausting and absurd.

I find it arrogant when young people come along thinking they can educate their mothers and other women into thinking what they think, otherwise known as wokescolding. Me and my daughter disagree on this issue but neither of us feel the need to re-educate the other, She also thinks my taste in music is shit and that my crocs are ugly, it's strange how different people have different opinions.

I also wonder why the TWAW crowd are so obsessed with genitals, us GC people do talk about genitals on the occasions when it is relevant but the TWAW crowd seem to talk about them a hell of a lot, like in your post.

In case the OP bothers to return - What on earth has intersex, a physical issue, got to do with transgenderism and identity politics ?
Should my tiny 13 year old daughter have to share the swimming pool changing rooms and showers, or any other, with an adult male ?

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?

Why do we have single sex spaces in the first place? Because for generations female people have been put at risk of physical and sexual harm by male people.

Most male people are not a threat to women and most trans women are no threat to natal women.

Many women do not care if male people share their spaces but a number of women do and all women are at increased risk of harm if males share their spaces.

Trans women retain male patterns of offending. Do you really think a woman who has just been raped should be examined by a male and that women’s refuges and prisons should be mixed sex.

1. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?

Intersex women ie those without a Y chromosome are women. Intersex and trans are two very different things and people with DSDs are not keen for their issues to be hijacked.

1. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

Women are of the class who produce large gametes and do not have a Y chromosome. Caster Semenya has XY chromosomes and is male and indeed in adulthood has lived as a male and fathered a child.

@HecatesCats

I compete in equestrian sports, where males and females compete against each other.

That might have something to do with a third party doing the heavy lifting 🤔

ahhhhh, let me guess, you’ve watched a round of showjumping on TV and the competitors made it look so easy that you just wrongly assume the horses do all the work. I see. Not the thread for this discussion, but my point still stands. Men and women absolutely CAN compete against each other in sports and surely taking the view that they can’t is very anti feminist, but then this board shows people have very different ideas on feminism and what it actually is....

*:33Bambam2019

thirstyformore

Sport.....how can it ever be fair (or for some sports safe) for people genetically born male to compete with people who are genetically female?

I compete in equestrian sports, where males and females compete against each other. (And for what it’s worth male and female horses too..🙄) so for me that point is irrelevant!*

Well aren't you lucky? Women who rugby or football, not so much.

ahhhhh, let me guess, you’ve watched a round of showjumping on TV and the competitors made it look so easy that you just wrongly assume the horses do all the work. I see.

No. I know a bit more about horses than that. But thanks for making a patronising assumption about me BamBam. Your attitude is pretty familiar to me.