I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

Kids that age will believe absolutely anything a grown up tells them.

This. Its in the literature written by activists: the aim is to get to children before adults have time to teach them nasty, bigoted thinking such as biology. The whole thing relies on politicising schools and teaching children not to listen to nasty stupid old people and their daft views. (See posters above.)

I remember one of my toddlers who had listened to us talking about what the tadpoles would turn into and what the fruit blossom would turn into pointing proudly at daffodils and telling his grandmother they would turn into butterflies. It made as much sense as anything else trusted adults were telling him.

The DfE release on duty of care was crucial. Teachers and schools in that position of trust should not be teaching any political views at all. You can take the argument of 'but we're teaching them the right and nice views (so they all think the right things like the right kind of people) and stuff it. Because that is the same argument used by any group in history who have ever politicised kids to their own personal beliefs.

It's the old Jesuit line about "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man."

Isn't this about the time the OP should return to state we're all a big bunch of meanies?

Seriously, thanks OP. Your lack of engagement or ability to offer any credible, evidence-based responses has been entirely predictable. Nevertheless, the thread has been fascinating and shows yet again how willing the posters on here are to engage in discussions, answer questions and patiently explain their views (time and time again).

Another vote for the thread to go in classics.

Isn't this about the time the OP should return to state we're all a big bunch of meanies?

Give her time. There are 19 posts left to do so in!

Teachers and schools in that position of trust should not be teaching any political views at all. You can take the argument of 'but we're teaching them the right and nice views (so they all think the right things like the right kind of people) and stuff it. Because that is the same argument used by any group in history who have ever politicised kids to their own personal beliefs.

Absolutely agree

Yes, so do I.

I am sitting on my hands not to just repeatedly post FRUMP until we hit 1000.

I posted about this elsewhere earlier (and got it from a poster on FWR originally!) but I think it’s worth reiterating - remember all that gumpf that the protrans training orgs came out with re: teachers changing kids names and sex markers on school registers and not having to inform the parents?

Turns out it that ‘advice’ is a direct breach of legal
parental responsibility!

From the .gov website:

‘What is parental responsibility?

All mothers and most fathers have legal rights and responsibilities as a parent - known as ‘parental responsibility’.

If you have parental responsibility, your most important roles are to:

provide a home for the child
protect and maintain the child
You’re also responsible for:

disciplining the child
choosing and providing for the child’s education
agreeing to the child’s medical treatment
naming the child and agreeing to any change of name
looking after the child’s property’

www.gov.uk/parental-rights-responsibilities

I wonder how much public money has been wasted ‘training’ staff to believe utterly bullshit assertions?

I wonder how much public money has been wasted ‘training’ staff to believe utterly bullshit assertions?

It's a highly lucrative business, so lots.

It's the old Jesuit line about "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man."

Regardless of what sex that child was assigned at birth

And their pronouns!

Would you be hard of thinking in general OP? Or just on this one issue? Venture a little further out of your usual echo chambers. Open your little eyes and ears. Think. Learn.

'Twas a few nights after Christmas
And all through the home
Debate was flowing faster
Than the cheap plonk from Rome

After putting to bed the Brexit debate
The family were on edge; the daughter irate

Then all at once bounding up with a clatter
Dearest daughter stands up declaring trans lives matter
Dad of course was bemused as her mum
He'd just declared dames in panto were there to poke fun
Luckily for him he could slink off to his shed
The caviler way to let mum deal with it instead
Tentatively Mum suggested perhaps that
Wishy Washy was just Uncle Dave wearing a pink hat
He's not having a crisis he just likes to get paid
She just wished that he'd do it without the fish jokes he played
Daughter's chair screeches as she leaves the festive table
Screaming you've been brainwashed by mumsnet- you believe in a fable
Women aren't vulnerable, men not all the power
Uncle Dave's really a Princess trapped in a tower
Just then comes in Dave with snow on his boots
Saying I'm honestly a man- Wishy Washy's a hoot
Dear daughter replies No Dave be yourself
Get back in that dress for the good of your health
The family look on as she started as she shook and she shoke
"I hate you all; can't you try to be woke".
She hopped into Mumsnet to tell all those menstruaters
You're all just a bunch of transphobic haters
After promising all an intellectual debate
Her replies were lazy lies and also late
Thankfully Mum was quick on the uptake
Hiding the router under the fruitcake
40 pages in and Mumsnet are still waiting with breath bated
Happy Christmas to Mumsnet- despite being slated.

Let's be fair to OP. She has probably gone off to read useful threads like these so she sees for herself the discussions on MN.

The view from wives of men who began to openly identify as women after marriage and children. It provides useful insights from people who truly know some transwomen.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3898348-Trans-Widows-Escape-Committee-4-A-New-Hope

OP though there have been no problems in prisons and in countries with self id. She needs the It Will Never Happen thread.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

She really didn't understand what gender critical women believe. The Break It Down For Me thread explains it nicely.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Very good, Buffster

Lol, wait until you have children. You won't be so keen on letting men into changing rooms and swimming pools and toilets when your young daughter is in there. You won't be bleating on about trans rights when your daughter wants to go on a girl guides residential but they have to let Elliot who is now Ellen go and share space. Easy to be pro the decimation of hard fought for women's spaces when you are a young narcissistic teen who thinks Twitter and Instagram are real life

Kids that age will believe absolutely anything a grown up tells them.

Kids believe in the tooth fairy, Father Christmas, that the goldfish went to goldfish heaven and generally whatever trusted adults tell them. They rely on us to guide them through the wonders of life. Some things are a bit unbelievable yet amazing. Some things are just lies.

Buffster you are brilliant

Is OP not coming back then?

Or has she realised...

That her mum was right...

Sometimes Mum really does know best.