I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

Cheers to your mum! Merry Christmas 🌲

In response to your first question, do you agree with self ID? Personally, my main issue is not actually with a genuine trans woman, but with a male posing as a trans woman and using self ID to invade women's spaces (changing rooms, refuges, jails etc) and jeopardise their safety. Can you reassure me that sexual assault on women and girls will not increase as a result of this 'loophole'?

Perhaps it would be better to not refer to 'you lot' in your introductory post.

All of the quetions you ask have been answered on other threads and since you say you say you have already 'absorbed' what has been said I don't know why you want the posters on here to go through it again with you.

However, it the spirit of engagement, I would like to ak you what you are talking about when you say you're 'convinced' that posters on here 'are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives.'

@thirstyformore

Sport.....how can it ever be fair (or for some sports safe) for people genetically born male to compete with people who are genetically female?

I compete in equestrian sports, where males and females compete against each other. (And for what it’s worth male and female horses too..🙄) so for me that point is irrelevant!

Answers
1 Because they are all male.
2 Along with all the other women.
3 Surgery makes no difference. Only a female infant can grow up to be a woman.

Now about that lemon drizzle cake....

1 transwomen are no more of a threat than men. If we accept that the male threat ( I use the term loosely to cover issues of respect as well as sexual harassment and assault) is sufficient to justify separation of sexes in some cases , then we must accept that since the threat is the same , women and transwomen should also be separated.

As a gc feminist I would be happy to offer suppprt if traswomen wanted to ask for gender based spaces in addition to sex based spaces

I would like to ak you what you are talking about when you say you're 'convinced' that posters on here 'are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives.'

Agreed, OP. Be specific. What exactly are we gravely misinformed about, in your view?

Also could you:

a) Define 'trans'
b) Define 'woman'
c) Tell us why you think we have single sex spaces and services under certain circumstances and why you think these should be removed?

What do YOU think a woman is?
What do you think about the erasure of the word ‘woman’ (replaced by meaningless terms like ‘pregnant people’ or ‘menstruator’) how do you square that with your feminism?

Do you think it’s fair for my 13 yr old daughter to have to compete against male bodied people in girls football? To have to change her tampax with an adult male who feels like a woman in the next cubicle, or change for swimming with an adult male who feels like a woman standing beside her? Should I be teaching her that she must override her own sense of privacy, dignity and safety to accommodate how adult men feel?

I want to be really clear about something OP. Most of the GC (gender critical) feminists on this board are not against trans rights. We’re against the erosion of women’s protected sex based rights like access to safe spaces and freely gathering to discuss female issues without having to make space for a male because he says he “feels” like a woman (which is not definable as a feeling because woman is an adult human female xx chromosome).

The biggest risk factor for violence against women is being male. It’s all or nothing so I choose nothing - no males in female spaces no matter what gender identity they have. That’s not transphobic, it’s protecting fellow women.

I feel that engaging with these type of threads is a drain on energy reserves and should be avoided.

If an obviously intelligent person can't understand the arguments by now then what's the point? (except to goad and troll?)

@Remxhah126

Not GC, but the general agreement on here seems to definitely be that Caster Semenya is a man - woman is a chromasome thing in the GC viewpoint. It's a very biological thing.

Actually, many people who post on this board are very familiar with discussions involving people with differences of sex development. thanks to modern techniques, even people with these variations can reliably be determined as either female or male.

Chromosomes are only one part of the equation as I am sure you know. Potential for which of the two gametes (I.e there is NO third gamete ever produced and therefore reproduction requires one of each- hence sex is binary) a body should produce, reproductive organs and genitals and hormone levels are also considered.

Making out that ‘GC’ people superficially discuss chromosomes is incorrect.

OP. If your mother has spent time on this board, she will have read posts about these variations. She will also have read the latest research by Dr Emma Hilton and Tommy Lundberg about the benefits of male puberty that cannot be negated enough to make participation of anyone experiencing these benefits able to compete in sports fairly. Caster Semenya is a difficult case but most others are very clear cut. And of course, transwomen are usually not people with DSDs.

Maybe you should also read these studies.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

Intersex is very complex. Once we exclude simple conditions such as xxx , it's also very rare . In general I think each separate intersex condition needs to be separately evaluated , as the ioc did for casters case.

Caster Semenya IS a man, that is not in question.

Waiting for the “engagement”. Suspect it’ll be a long wait.

A woman is defined by biology, chromosomes that lead to an expected genital development.

A man who loses his genitals in war is still a man.

“I’m here to listen”

Mmm, yes dear, you sound very open minded.

Big wave to your mum as I too was radicalised on mumsnet.

I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can.

Looking forward to you engaging and responding...

Unless of course it's simply that your essay is really overdue and you're just hoping that the good people of MN are going to write it for you on this thread?

I would love to hear your critically reasoned, carefully thought through points on this matter, tbh. I am a secondary teacher, and I always enjoy hearing the points made by those of my students who are able to do more than spout the latest woke Twitter-speak on this subject. I'm genuinely interested to hear your thoughts on the definition of the word "woman", what you perceive to be the main dangers of erasing single-sex spaces for women and how you advise we address that issue. I'm particularly interested to hear what you denote "transphobia" and whether you are able to unpick that concept with any subtlety or whether you merely - as so many do - denounce all thinking, discussion and nuance beyond TWAW as transphobic?

I don't find either paper makes good loo roll though , I tend to read online ?

Great engagement OP. Top marks.

OP, do you believe transwomen are women? If so, what makes them women?

www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/lemon_drizzle_traybake_01890

Re 2, there are just tiny numbers of people that actually identify as intersex. A larger number of us consider we have variations of sex characteristics. Most of us would identify as mothers, social workers, sisters etc, and would identify if anything with the specific VSC we have.
Re Caster, it is quite likely that if it wasn’t for sporting classifications Caster would identify as male, with a condition, 5α-Reductase deficiency that only impacts external genitals, making them appear non-standard unless surgery is chosen, but not preventing Caster fathering children with Caster’s wife. Caster always presented as a boy, wearing the male school uniform etc. until they were scouted as an athlete. The commercialisation of sport has put Caster in a difficult position giving attention to something that should be private, for which I have sympathy, but it doesn’t alter the fact that we are a sexually dimorphic species.

Your op is dripping in bile. You don’t seem to want to discuss or learn at all. Rather to ridicule and tell us we are gravely informed.

Are you really ok with any man, who says he’s a woman accessing female only spaces? Any man? Even one, who threatens to rape, maim or murder natal women? Even those with beards and misogynistic entitlement?

Because unless you are ok with this, you are also no trans ally. And if you are really ok with it, you’re no feminist.

Or are you talking about the quiet transwoman quietly going about her business? These transwomen have been accessing female toilets for decades without incident. They respect natal females and have appropriate boundaries.

Thank you for listening and your clear engagement, OP.

Your responses have been illuminating!!