I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?

• they are men. Any and all men can pose a risk to women. We don't know which men pose a risk so we exclude all of them. Transwomen are no less men than any other type of man. Transwomen commit crimes at the same rate as any other man.

1. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?

• intersex females are female, so they are women. How much do you know about disorders of sexual development to ask this question?

1. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

• being female, having a female appearing body and being raised as a female. Transwomen who have penile inversion surgery are still men. Caster Semenya in my view is a woman with male chromosomes. She was perceived to be female and raised as female (though there is no doubt people knew she was unusual as a child and that was developed in her athletic capacity, and she's known she has an unfair advantage over other women in sports for a decade)

I very much like and appreciate your style. I know many many young feminists like yourself who say 'bigot! I am not talking about this with you as we clearly don't agree.....'

How is that going to solve anything? Although, part of me thinks that more open discourses are only trickling through now because the tide is turning a little.....?

Anyway, glad you are listening. To answer your first questions:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?

It's not transwomen, it's men. It always has been men. It is very naive to think that men will not exploit the current climate to gain access to women, girls and children at their most vulnerable. Any man claiming a female identity is either transgender (fine!) or has nefarious reasons. I am happy to accept any transgender woman into safe spaces as soon as there is a reliable and failsafe way to tell the difference.

1. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?

Representatives of the intersex community have continually, repeatedly asked not to be drawn into this issue...... Again and again, they have said, intersex people are not transgender, transgender is not intersex. So I would respect that.

1. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

Women all have one thing in common, a woman's body, weaker and smaller than mans' and designed to grow babies - whether they can or not. This is why we are an oppressed class, because we are designed to grow babies. This is why it is ever young girls being married off to older men in forced marriages, not the other way round. This is why youth is so often associated with beauty, why older women (especially those without children) are often sidelined, this is why women are an oppressed class and it is what we all have in common - Black, white, Jewish, Hindu, tall, short, disabled, rich, poor, fat, thin, masculine with short hair, ultra feminine, lesbian, bisexual, asexual, athletes, academics, politicians, carers - it really is the one thing that unites us all, our female bodies.

Our female bodies are bought, sold, cut, raped, brutalised, neglected, beaten, adored, worshipped for being female. For being weaker, for growing babies.

Finally, a question for you - if transwomen ARE women, what makes a transwomen different from you?

Engaging thread

What's your definition of woman? What do you mean by trans?
Where do you stand on self ID? TW in women's sports? In female prisons? Children receiving puberty blockers?

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

1. I work in a men's prison. There are a lot of transwomen there. They have a male offending pattern. They are men.

Woman is not a costume. I've met transwomen outside of prison and individually they were lovely colleagues, people and friends. But all of them were the first to acknowledge they weren't actually the same as a natal woman. They had a different lived experience.

1. Intersex women are women. They aren't a third sex that acts as a gotcha to prove gender fluidity.

1. Caster Semenya's identity is private to her but her actual diagnosis is easily identifiable. It isn't appropriate to decide the whole outcome of world sport, or gender politics on one person. Equally transwomen with bottom surgeries are a minority of transwomen.

Such brilliant responses. I really hope OP engages as I work with a lot of young people who agree with her and I would
love to understand her position on the points raised.

Fucking LOL!

FFS read one of the other threads like this to understand why women are pissed off.

@AnyFucker

Engaging thread

Certainly got the board going!

Biology isn't about external genitalia. Sex is in every cell of your body. Insisting that anyone with DSD(intersex) proves that sex is a spectrum is deliberate obfuscation, always done from a point of ignorance or intent to deceive.

This needs shouting from the rooftops.

I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives

Do feel free to enlighten us, I am particularly interested in the goals of the rights movement.

@CandyLeBonBon

What does your age have to do with anything?

Well I think it's honest to admit to youth and the inevitable inexperience that implies.

Fair point @midgebabe

Interesting that after the pompous opening post the OP has disappeared.

One other question OP. The law was recently changed in Scotland to permit people who have been sexually assaulted, including by rape, to request that they be examined by a forensic medical examiner and to choose the sex of the examiner. The law had previously said they could choose the examiner's gender.

Do you think this change is an improvement to the law?

@HecatesCats

I compete in equestrian sports, where males and females compete against each other.

That might have something to do with a third party doing the heavy lifting 🤔

Hmm so in the very few sports where it is both safe and fair for both sexes to compete together they already do it. Makes you wonder why it doesn't happen in other sports already doesn't it? If only ladies applied themselves a little more and stopped being held back from proper training and completion by thinking about shoes and kitten all the time they could be 20% faster like the men are.🙄 They should probably think a bit stronger too to avoid injury again people who have the physical advantages of male bodies because it's clearly the fluffy thinking that makes it dangerous for women to face male bodied adults in contact sports.

In an individual level I have no issue with the individual trans people i have met.

However. My daughter plays a sport. She is currently in the GB squad for her sport.

If self Id becomes a thing and transwomen are allowed to play she will lose her place on the team, as will all the women.

Because some people are unable to debate and discuss. They shout their position and run. Will cry ‘attacked!’ if questioned further.

I brought DS to realise that there is always a follow up question to be sure if what you say.

When I hear "you lot" I imagine a finger being jabbed at me.

How do you know that it's your mother that you disagree with here? How do you know which parent zhey are?

@BaronessWrongCrowd

Guess what, people aren't the Borg- we don't have a hive mind. We are free to hold any opinion we like.

I might not agree with what you have to say Op, but I will defend your right to say it. Could you say the same?

Very well put. Its the non acceptance of others opinions I find most threatening. We must all think the same otherwise we will be cancelled. How controlling.

Looking forward to the OP engaging with some of the points raised!

I hope she isn't over on Twitter claiming to have been 'piled on'.

I think op may have enough material for her end of term essay now

Your mum sounds awesome. Good on her.

@SirVixofVixHall

Interesting that after the pompous opening post the OP has disappeared.

I'm properly shocked me like.