I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

@Bambam2019 men and women can’t compete on an equal level in every sport.

Men and women absolutely CAN compete against each other in sports and surely taking the view that they can’t is very anti feminist, but then this board shows people have very different ideas on feminism and what it actually is....

It depends on the sport, obviously.

If all sports were mixed sex, women wouldn't achieve much at all. How does that help women?

Your mother was clearly capable of reflection and critical thought. Good for her.

Little miss moggy

Just want to pick you up on the use of the term CIs women which you used
( cis women have different experience to transwomen)

The truth is that all women , independent of their gender identity experience things that transwomen dont. Please do not assume that all women here have a gender identity that matches their sex , please do not exclude those women from the category of women

For reference I believe some women here do have a gender identity of women, others reject that as oppressive, others have no clear gender identity, others struggle to understand what one is and others ( myself) would say if pushed that it is male or none binary ( i felt male as a child but had that driven out by society inability to see past my sex )

Yeah, you ain't no feminist bruv.

So OP as a feminist answer me this;

Are you ok with labels being stuck on different people. Ie girls being told if they like computing, wearing trousers and cars they might be/must be men. And blokes being told if they like wearing skirts, make up and cooking they might be/must be female?

Because I don’t understand the trans woman’s argument of “I feel like a woman”. Why can’t they be men who enjoy this sort of stuff. I feel it’s wrong that society are putting people into boxes and saying you can’t do xyz or you can’t think like xyz unless you’re male/female.

It totally reinforces gender stereotypes and puts feminism back decades.

@Bambam2019 are you really insisting that because some sports are mixed sex that all sports can be (if so, why do you think certain sports are single sex now?)? Or are you just trying to deflect from the issues people have raised?

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces.

Because they are men. Its really not hard. 'Obtuse to reality' Lol.

@FenellaVelour

Your mother was clearly capable of reflection and critical thought. Good for her.

This 💯!

Well at one level all sports can be mixed but that usually requires other adjustments. We played mixed football but the lads would moderate themselves to prevent female injury and teams were always picked with a mind to creating sex balance to give a closer game

Bambam2019

You bring up horses.

As I understand it, in horse racing, there is a separate race from the Kentucky Derby (which is open to both male and female horses over three), called the Kentucky Oaks, which is female only. Thoughts on why that might be?

In the history of the Derby, it seems it has only been won by a filly three times. (Could have miscounted though.)

Curious.

I have a hunch I'm in the same women's grou as your mum, and our social circles cross I'm of a younger generation.
She's a power house of epic proportions, I hope I have a fraction of her energy as I mature.

1. Personally I have no issue with a genuine trans woman being in a female toilets, etc. However I’m concerned any man could say they’re a woman in this current climate and gain access to such places for non genuine reasons. A school friend of mine was raped by a man in a woman’s toilets. We should be able to challenge men entering such spaces, not allow them to loiter about to rape school children.

Plus plenty of other women won’t feel comfortable with someone who is male presenting in a female space. Maybe they’ve been raped previously, maybe their religion forbids them being so close to a man....do we just Chuck these women under the bus and say bad luck?

1. Intersex has nothing to do with the trans debate. Intersex people have repeatedly said they don’t wish to be drawn into the debate so I will respect their wishes unlike you.

And for your third question I would say chromosomes. Men having their penises removed does not make them women and never will do. Caster is a man.

How can you be a feminist and not critical of gender? Gender is the basis of feminism - it is the box feminism aims to relegate to room 101. Gender proscribes his we should think, speak, act based on our sex.

An average male teenager playing an average woman in her 20s could clatter that woman in any number of sports and cause serious injury. We all know this. Some of us refuse to pretend otherwise.

Here is Emma Hilton's & Tommy Lundberg's recent analysis:

Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage"

Here's the link: link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

For someone who wanted a discussion you aren't talking very much - kinda makes me question your motive.

Why isn't your mum allowed her own opinion? Is she guilty of wrongthink in your eyes? Good on her for having a mind of her own and not kowtowing to wokeness.

That's if "mum" exists and you aren't just here with your made up story to collect responses...

Why are we waiting ...

Oh look another post and run

As the OP is well aware of this website and FWR they obviously already know what we think and why.

Not the thread for this discussion, but my point still stands. Men and women absolutely CAN compete against each other in sports and surely taking the view that they can’t is very anti feminist, but then this board shows people have very different ideas on feminism and what it actually is....

Yes. Males and females CAN compete together- in mixed teams!!! And one or two sports where they can compete individually fairly. Those one or two do not disprove the fact that in the rest of the sports males have the advantage. And in contact sports, increase the risk.

But crack on minimizing it.

Have not read the thread and appreciate OP might be goady but happy to answer for anyone who actually wants to know

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?

Firstly, transwomen as a whole don't represent a threat. Men do. Allowing any man to say that he is female and therefore can access female only spaces is of concern and goes against all safeguarding that has been put into place for women and children.

Some men who say they are transwomen have assaulted women and children so it is definitely not 'in the mind' - plenty of evidence if you want to google or check out the specific threads on this site.

1. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?

People with DSD are still either male or female. They have asked not to be drawn into this debate to score points. We respect that.

1. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

Biology makes a woman. No surgery changes that. A bike without wheels is still a bike. A sofa with wheels is still a sofa. See above regarding DSD and Caster Semenya.

Hi. Interesting post op. I consider myself gender critical however this is the first time in my life I haven't been on the 'left wing/right side' of the argument, so I've spent a long time examining my views and reading up on the issue in general. Apologies I'm not very articulate but I'll try to explain my thoughts as best I can.

In my mind it's not trans people I take issue with. It's the problems that arise from doing away with sex based (as opposed to gender based exemptions). For example women's prisons and sports are two things I believe should be segregated according to natal sex and I don't see how I can square that with self-identification without it causing problems for women - as it already has done in the case of fallon fox and Karen white.

Ideally I'd like to live in a world where anybody can identify how they like and express their gender identity however they so wish, but I'd also like to live in a world where my daughter feels able to speak up if there's someone for example in her gym changing room or public toilet who she feels is predatory and I don't know how these two ideals can co-exist. Just to clarify I'm not saying that trans people are predators or violent - I'm saying that by allowing people who don't appear to be female into female only spaces it makes room for predatory males to enter as people are less likely to speak up for fear of making a wrong call. Annoyingly I think the real problem is male pattern violence but women and trans women are being left to battle over who has to bear the brunt of it (ie do we desegregate changing rooms and toilets or force people to use one they feel unsafe in) while men get away without ever having to address what is essentially their problem.

I know and like trans people in real life and I think for a long time there's been a sort of ladies agreement and we've all co-existed perfectly happily but the internet has a nasty habit of polarising people and has dragged the arguments in to a very black and white scenario. I also wonder whether the trans rights movement online has been hijacked somewhat by other groups with other motives. To me one of the highest forms of misogyny is using rape threats to silence women and I see this online a lot by people who say they identify as women.

It's interesting I was on Instagram the other day and came across a post (shared by jameela jamil) by a trans man saying essentially they'd always been very careful not to encroach on gay men's private spaces and always waited until they were invited. It was a very good post and received a lot of praise in the comments . I really wish I remembered the name of the poster and I'd share it. I just didn't understand why a trans-man understanding they're not automatically entitled to go into male only spaces and understanding it's a nuanced situation is praised but asking the same of a trans woman is offensive. Is it because not matter how we identify, if you're born a woman you're expected to tread carefully around other people's feelings but if you're born a man you aren't?