I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

DressingGownofDoom Yes, that made me raise an eyebrow too.
I read neither but both are toilet paper How does OP know that if she never read any?

@despairenting

OP, if you're still around, some advice from one young person to another (you mention lecturers so I'm assuming you're of typical uni student age, making me somewhere between 5 and 10 years older than you) - don't write off middle-aged women just because you think they're past it. They have lived a lot of life, most likely experienced a lot of sexism in various ways, and may even have fought to secure a lot of what you take for granted. Just because they're maybe a bit frumpy and have a few greys (yes, I'm being cheeky), doesn't mean they can't think for themselves and are wrong about everything. I've learnt and grown a lot by making friends with women of all ages in recent years and it's fantastic to hear a variety of views before just writing people off, especially if you're writing them off based on what OTHER people are saying about their views. Approach things with an open mind. Don't be hostile. Try not to assume your view is the 'correct' one.

Have a talk with your mum. Both of you. Sit down, spare some time, try to keep talking even if you bristle at certain things. Make her listen to your points too. Don't go into it assuming she's a complete dumbass. After all, she raised you and you're one of the most intelligent people out there, right? Perhaps she's not all bad.

Great reply

I remember bristling when I first heard about Germaine Greer pushing back against a trans woman being admitted to or occupying some role in a women's college (I cannot recall the precise details, as it was years ago); just as I bristled when I read that Maya Forstater would used preferred pronouns out of "courtesy". But the more I have thought about it, the more I have understood why TWAW, as an unqualified assertion, is simply wrong. In fact, I think at one stage, @borandukht agreed with some sort of limit on the ability of TW to participate in women's sport, a position that some TRAs have objected to. So even @borandukht might find themselves on the "wrong" side of this debate...!

@borandukht, there was recently a debate in Scotland about whether victims of rape and sexual assault should have the right to request a woman medical examiner. By an overwhelming vote it was agreed that "woman" should refer to sex and not to gender identity. Do you agree with that approach? Or do you think that a woman who has been raped and who asks for a woman examiner should have to accept that the woman who does the examination may be a male-bodied person with a penis and testicles?

The issue is that once you start going through these examples, there are many instances where TW are not W. But accepting that does not mean you're denying trans people their human rights or their right to exist or are doing actual violence on them. It is a recognition that there are conflicts between sex and gender identity, and that there are times when sex-based rights need to be protected.

The constant invocations of the intersex argument have finally driven me to un-lurk briefly, and give my point of view as someone with a DSD. Quick history: born with usual female appearance, diagnosed at 16 after going to gynae doctor due to amenorrhea- first a laparoscopy established lack of uterus, etc and then a bucal smear that indicated I had XY chromosomes, which was a shock to my medical team as well as to me and my parents.

So am I a woman? I don't know what a question like that would mean. Certainly my experience until 16 - my dreams, my socialization, my appearance, all make me feel there was no reason to say I was not a girl. Since then... my family, my friends, my boyfriends, my colleagues, whether they know my diagnosis or not don't seem to consider me as anyting else but a woman. Appearance wise I am flat-chested, taller than average, mostly wearing jeans and flats, but I don't think I've ever had anyone call me Sir or look at me twice is a womens changing room or space.

Frankly the question that exercised me for two decades after diagnosis was not whether I was a woman or not but whether I was a freak of nature. Joining a support group was great - I met hundreds of women, girls, and their parents, who all had histories somewhat similar to mine, and I could see myself reflected in them - not freaks, and yes women. With our defenses down, through all our honest conversations, our experiences, it just seemed inconceivable to see each other as anything else.

I also met people with other intersex conditions, or DSDs, some born with 'ambiguous' genitals, some with pubertal androgenization, and of course it is difficult to be very categorical about what such conditions mean if one wants to make rigid definitions. Even with the same medical conditions, there are so many variations in the history! Whether there was early diagnosis, whether there was surgery... But mostly the questions we faced in our own minds were more about our differences, our freakishness. Gender identity seemed the least interesting aspect to talk about.

All I wish for is compassion when dealing with these unique situations. I have met some wonderful, amazing people through support groups, and am proud to be part of the community.

I can’t even begin to imagine how finding out something like that (at any age let alone a teen) would feel.

I feel - sad, angry, outraged - when I see the condition used as a “ahaha! See there is another sex!!!” argument by people who have been told by those who know that this isn’t the case.

OP you haven't answered what you think the definition of 'female' is.

My advice is listen to your mum. She's not a silly old woman on a silly website that makes you want to "blow your brains out". MN isn't full of daft housewives, we are an intelligent group, full of scientists, doctors, and women with varying experiences of male violence. We don't think anyone should be able to opt out of a group that oppresses us and appropriate our sex. FYI, you being woke doesn't make you smarter or more well informed than your mum or us.

Or definition of 'woman' if you prefer

I can’t even begin to imagine how finding out something like that (at any age let alone a teen) would feel.

Me neither.

Thank you skandinoir, that’s a really interesting perspective to hear.

@skandinoir thanks for sharing your story. I do have to say I feel uncomfortable having to boil everything down to genitals for exactly this reason. I'm sure there are already women in your life that include and respect you, but would like to say you are not only a woman, a truly brave one as well to have dealt with that so young.

@skandinoir

Thank you for that. Your story is why I also hate the people who create the “she’s XY, she’s a man, she’s always been a man, been through male puberty, she knows she’s a man” narrative around Caster Semenya.

Usually with knowledge gained from wikipedia and google (or mumsnet, as pp suggested upthread to learn about CS’ DSD we need only read previous discussions as other posters know all about it)

As you say even people with the same DSD can present very differently. Unless you are one of that persons medical team it is impossible to say how their DSD affects them.

@DigOutThoseLemonHandWipes

Growing up I played football with the lads and one by one they could all out sprint me, out jump me, shurg me off the ball with with no effort when they had not previously been able to. I was 5'9" by the time I was 13 and class arm wrestling champ. much to the annoyance of a few of the boys so not some tiny, delicate wee thing but even the guys that were still several inches shorter than me and so skinny they had to run around in the shower to get wet could suddenly brush me aside like I was nothing. No amount of reducing current testosterone levels with take that advantage away. Their bones were different, their muscles were different, their hearts and lungs were different. They were men, with male bodies and I was not.

Quite.

My brother and I were always of a very similar strength level throughout childhood, we also kept getting into physical fights very far into our teen years. I knew he was stronger than me and holding back, but I still remember the day when he pushed me to the ground with barely a tap and almost no sign of effort on his part. I'm fairly strong for a woman but the difference in strength between my brother and myself once puberty hit is insurmontable. Even if he did no more exercise than occasionally take the odd walk and never did any strength training, he would always be able to physically overpower me, if he wanted too.

I sometimes think we've done young girls a disservice with the way women are portrayed on screen as being able to easily overpower grown men, just so long as they have some fight training. I was watching a clip from Mission Impossible, stay with me here, I have a semi- relevant point . It's all very impressive and over-the-top but actually the most is where Rebecca Ferguson's character is able to easily take down a fully grown man with a few kicks. Tom Cruise climbing into a moving helicopter actually happened, not a chance in hell could Rebecca have taken out that man.

And it's all over TV/films, part of showing 'strong women' and 'female empowerment' seems to have equalled as showing girls that women can easily kick a man's ass in a fight. When actually you've got bugger all chance. Buffy/Xena (I'm a 90s kid ) were superheroes and presented as such, they weren't normal women which is why they could fight and win against men. Showing a semi-realistic female character who is fit and strong, as being able to fight off a man with ease isn't always helpful. I think some teens girls and adult women actually belive they've got a real chance in a one on one fight with a man, they don't. Unless they've had reason to fight with a man, whether with a sibling, sport or a violent father, they don't realise how physically powerless they are by comparison.

I'm not calling for a return to a time when women are just shown on film as fainting and needing a male to rush into rescue them. However, the fact is, women are the physically weaker sex and that isn't an insult to us. It's just reality.

Total tangent but Buffy was awesome!
I also think characters like Katniss and the new Mulan are annoying because they are good at absolutely everything as well as super pretty.
Buffy was great because she was flawed and needed her friends to be strong (i.e brainy Willow).
Films nowadays tend to just superconcentrate all traits into one female character. It's hardly inclusive and a lot to live up to.

We also now seem to have a generation of children who are growing up with the belief that it's possible to change sex. Is this poor education or too much living in fantasy worlds online

Yes, on-line worlds, instagram and so on, and gaming culture definitely nurtures the belief that you can be, or present, any way you like. The presentation is taken as the reality. And this presentation is what you utilise to interact with others.

So much of modern culture is consumeristic to the extent that one can now purchase or select from a variety of off the peg identities. Tailor made worlds.The thing is, none of it is real, and rapidly evaporates on first contact with that reality, or with even the most superficial examination.

I think that they somehow must know that it all is a house of cards. I wonder where all this dependency on external validation is coming from?

Stephanie Davies-Arai on Benjamin Boyce’s video explains this so well. The whole world around a trans person has to partake in this deception of language (and this validation) otherwise what happens? There’s no thing as trans anymore, just people with different personality traits. If we don’t subscribe to the language of the ideology, the whole house of card collapses.
www.youtube.com/c/BenjaminABoyce/videos?disable_polymer=true&itct=CBIQ8JMBGAEiEwiDtt-Sz_PtAhWiBAYAHY0KAMU%3D

I read an interesting piece on k-pop on BBC News earlier. Admittedly, I know very little about it beyond the huge and dedicated fan base. I know manufactured pop groups are nothing new but k-pop takes it to a different level with live-in training camps, plastic surgery and fake personas. It all seems part of a bigger cultural move towards fake identities. People aren't valued for being autenthic and themselves anymore even if they are claiming to be their authentic selves. I think it's really sad.

I think some teens girls and adult women actually belive they've got a real chance in a one on one fight with a man, they don't. Unless they've had reason to fight with a man, whether with a sibling, sport or a violent father, they don't realise how physically powerless they are by comparison.

Yep. This used to be well understood. With the caveat that if you've been trained to an extremely high level in self defence techniques and the man is drunk and so not in peak condition, the average man will always be stronger than the average women. It's not just women who seem to believe this, it's also young men on the internet and I wonder how many of them will physically abuse the women they live with before they realise how much stronger they are than women.

I've had young female co-workers telling me I'm sexist for saying men are, on average, stronger and faster than women. I joke back that they've been watching too many super hero movies, and yet, even in the 60s, I was obsessed with Emma Peel and totally believed I could learn to throw men over my shoulder. The difference was, I was 9 and grew out of it.

So they genuinely believe there’s no advantage? Lord they are dumb as a brick.

We also now seem to have a generation of children who are growing up with the belief that it's possible to change sex. Is this poor education or too much living in fantasy worlds online

My daughter is 12. At school, a number of her peers have told her that by taking oestrogen, you will 'grow boobs, a vagina, and be able to produce milk'. Thankfully her SME teacher put that notion to bed when she asked the question in class (because she was being called transphobic for saying they were wrong) but it terrifies me how utterly brainwashable these kids are. It's mass radicalisation right under our noses.

Brainwashed is exactly right. Why do you think activists are SO desperate to get this shit into primary schools? Kids that age will believe absolutely anything a grown up tells them. Much harder to undo it later on.

@ScreamingBeans

I think some teens girls and adult women actually belive they've got a real chance in a one on one fight with a man, they don't. Unless they've had reason to fight with a man, whether with a sibling, sport or a violent father, they don't realise how physically powerless they are by comparison.

Yep. This used to be well understood. With the caveat that if you've been trained to an extremely high level in self defence techniques and the man is drunk and so not in peak condition, the average man will always be stronger than the average women. It's not just women who seem to believe this, it's also young men on the internet and I wonder how many of them will physically abuse the women they live with before they realise how much stronger they are than women.

I think the problem is, actually the below average man will also normally be far stronger than the above average women.

I remember, in my teens, being outraged when my father laughed at me for saying women could be as good as men at sports. He just carried on laughing at my fury and asking if I really believed that a female runner could run as fast as a male one. At the time I really did believe that and my father is a misogynist in many ways but on a factual level he was right and I was wrong.

Brainwashed is exactly right. Why do you think activists are SO desperate to get this shit into primary schools? Kids that age will believe absolutely anything a grown up tells them. Much harder to undo it later on.

💯

@Sexnotgender

Brainwashed is exactly right. Why do you think activists are SO desperate to get this shit into primary schools? Kids that age will believe absolutely anything a grown up tells them. Much harder to undo it later on.

It has the horrible ring of grooming about it.

If we don’t subscribe to the language of the ideology, the whole house of card collapses

That's it! The whole edifice depends on the unquestioning acceptance of the basic tenets of the faith. Everything proceeds from there.

If you feel something, or believe it to be true, then it must be true the world over........Relativity turned into an absolute fact.

I remember, in my teens, being outraged when my father laughed at me for saying women could be as good as men at sports. He just carried on laughing at my fury and asking if I really believed that a female runner could run as fast as a male one. At the time I really did believe that and my father is a misogynist in many ways but on a factual level he was right and I was wrong

It's not so much that women are "not as good" at sport or athleticism as men: women can be equally as fit; agile; skilled and dedicated, but when comparing muscularity, strength and speed there is no competition. That is why women require their own categories and divisions in which they can excel.In sports such as Judo and boxing there are also weight divisions, of course, and well as single sex categories.