I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

Oh and by the way, once you centre males (however they identify) in your feminism, you are NOT a feminist.

If "intersex" is your go-to argument, you must realise your position makes no sense?

Also, do you always speak like a jerk?

Gosh, yesterday we had thanksjkrowling with their interesting first post, and today we have you. Anyone would think there were trolls afoot because of the holidays. No doubt this will be deleted too. For the regular posters, just be careful, the trolls are watching with their fingers ready to hit the report button for wrong think to get you banned.
There's a wealth of knowledge information about all of these issues out there op, if only you could be bothered to look. But somehow I don't think that's quite what youre after.

You're really uncomfortable with your mum not agreeing with your views, aren't you? Why do you think this is? Do you feel that all women have to agree all the time? Or is it just that older women should agree with you?

What a self important word salad.

.

@PicsInRed my thoughts exactly

I love how ‘the young people’ think they know everything, invented everything and anyone over the age of 30 is irrelevant and stupid. Yawn.

@Bambam2019
Because of course equestrian sport is totally comparable. Oh wait....

Between @Grimsisters Once you centre males (however they identify) in your feminism, you are NOT a feminist.

And @PicsInRed : What a self important word salad.

There is not much else to say, except RTFTs. The answers you seek have already been written.

Well I cant speak for all gc feminists, but I can give you my position:

1. I don't see all transwomen as a threat. But of course it depends on how you define "transwoman".
   I do see womens spaces being threatened by the change of language, and I believe womens spaces would be threatened by self ID. Especially prisons and places that serve very vulnerable women. That is not the same as seeing all individual transwomen as a threat, iyswim.
   Sex and gender are different, would you agree?
   Most of the time, we don't need to separate mem and women. But there are a few occasions where I think it is appropriate to separate the 2. (Again, I would be interested to know if you disagree with this on principle.)
   So when we DO need to draw a distinction, do we do it by sex, or by gender?
   I know that the former is not perfect- there will be a few individuals who do not fit clearly into either category. But the latter is far more nebulous and blurry. Perhaps there are some instances where separation by gender is appropriate, but medical care, statistics, prisons and sport should all be done by biological sex in my opinion. Not by how an individual may feel, or what their soul or inner essence may be.

2. intersex women should not be coopted into this divisive argument. Intersex is not one thing and it is not a feeling. It is a number of physical disorders, some very serious. Intersex does not disprove sexual dimorphism, any more than other physical disorders disprove how many legs and arms the human species has.
   It is possible to make a statement about human beings in general (like there are 2 sexes) even when there are a small number of individuals who are the exception to the norm due to medical conditions. And by the way, most "intersex" people are either male or female. They are not some missing link between males and females. They each have a disorder of sexual development (there are different types with different causes and symptons). They cannot be lumped together with transwomen and should not be used as a pawn in an argument.

3. in the vast majority of cases, a woman is an adult human female. It is very useful to have a word which means adult human female and it becomes very difficult to discuss all kinds of issues when there is no word. It is also important to be able to communicate information (eg medical) widely, in a truly inclusive way. It is not inclusive or kind to speak of "menstruators" "cis women" "birthing people" or "cervix havers".
   It excludes many women and girls, either due to comprehension issues or due to personal beliefs (I am not cis, because I do NOT agree that my sex matches my gender. Every definition of female gender I have come across looks like the regressive, reductive stereotypes I have been struggling against).
   There will be a small number of cases where sex is not clear upon birth (but most intersex people are still male or female). But I do not see this as a reason in itself to throw the whole concept of sex out of the window. Especially when there are very real consequences of ignoring sex.

I hope that because I have taken the time to answer your questions, you can answer mine:

1. Who do you mean by "transwomen"? Because to me, that word conflates a lot of quite different people and muddles together many issues.
   I am not a fan of circular definitions myself (eg "Brexit means Brexit") so it would be great if you could provide a non-circular definition, but I appreciate that may not be possible.

2. what do YOU think makes a woman? If the sex definition is inappropriate due to a very small number of individuals with disorders who dont easily fit into either category, then why is the (much more nebulous, woolly, and at times offensive) gender definition better?

OP, transgender people have exactly the same rights as you and me. They are protected by the Equality Act if they are embarking on gender reassignment. If you're young you probably won't know that until relatively recently lesbians and gay people didn't have the kind of rights that trans people enjoy now.

I lived during a period when because of section 28 I kept quiet about my sexuality at work because I might be sacked as a result. When in 1994 my gay friend Robert died of AIDS he couldn't leave his work pension to his long-term partner because there was no such thing as civil partnership, let alone marriage. Until fairly recently (2004) lesbian and gay couples were at a massive tax disadvantage when one of them died. They couldn't just inherit the other's property (including the house they'd bought together) without incurring IHT. If we were discriminated against at work because of our sexuality we could be forced out of jobs with no recourse to law and compensation.

I know what it feels like not to have the same rights as 90% of the population. Transgender people have more protection than I enjoyed for most of my adult life. They now have the same rights as everyone else. What extra rights do they need?

I compete in equestrian sports, where males and females compete against each other.

That might have something to do with a third party doing the heavy lifting 🤔

Lordy, your poor mum.

Try listening to her, instead of condescending to her as if she is a witless numpty. I'm sure she can answer your questions for herself. Perhaps even consider that she may be just as intelligent, thoughtful and informed as you consider yourself to be.

I'm truly sorry it inconveniences or embarrasses you that your mum has a differing opinions on this topic to you, but that's how it goes.

A good feminist lesson to learn is that your mum is a person too, deserving of the same respect as others.

I'd suggest some introspection - are you perhaps exhibiting some misogyny towards your mother in your casual dismissal of her?

I'd expect, quite honestly, she's at the end of her tether with you!

It's all terribly self important isn't it. Good thing it's all anonymous really.

There were no other posts when I wrote my reply.
Serves me right for writing such an essay!

OP, I did take considerable time to answer you in good faith as well as I could. So I do hope that you return the courtesy by at least reading my little essay, and maybe even responding to the questions I asked.

I will try to explain why the issue and movement makes me angry personally. Imagine you & a male friend decide to dress as the opposite sex one day for whatever reason. Then you visit a bog standard small town pub. Which toilet would you both choose to use and why? I’m quite sure you would both feel safer in the ladies. Why? It all boils down to the threat of male violence. So my question is, why why why is this not the main issue in the trans rights debates, rather than attacking the rights of women and their spaces? Is it so totally assumed that men cannot change? Why are lesbians persecuted for their preferences, but men who would never date a trans woman are never so much as challenged? In my opinion you are fighting the wrong fight.

It does come down to age too, sorry to be patronising but fresh out of uni I held the same beliefs as you. Even now at nearly 40 I don’t feel worthy to call myself a feminist, I still have a lot to learn.

Why do you say you are a feminist?

I really don't know. I'm still trying to listen to all sides and think it through. I don't think there are easy resolutions to any of this.

Guess what, people aren't the Borg- we don't have a hive mind. We are free to hold any opinion we like.

I might not agree with what you have to say Op, but I will defend your right to say it. Could you say the same?

Hi OP, I'm also a young feminist and I agree that trans rights and women's rights are, in certain scenarios, in conflict. The most obvious ones are prisons, women's sports and refuges/rape crisis centres. It's not transphobic to say that this is an issue, many transwomen would also agree this is an issue. I don't think it helps anyone to pretend that this is a simple thing with easy solutions that suit everyone when it's clearly not.

What does your age have to do with anything?

Thanks for the invitation OP. Some questions.

• Do you think that gender dysphoria is a requirement for someone to be trans?
• Do you think that people can be, or sincerely believe themselves to be, trans and then desist to be a detransitioner?
• Do you agree that it's correct that the considerable majority of transwomen do not have gender reassignment surgery and have no intention to do so?
• Should a male rapist who identifies as a woman and has not had any gender reassignment surgery be put into a women's prison?
• Do you think that puberty blockers are reversible so that if a child is put on them at 10 and then decides to stop taking them at 16 their sexual and other development end up at the same point had they not taken the blockers?
• What do you think is behind the 4400% increase in girls identifying as trans in less than a decade?

Well, consider my breath bated...