Time Magazine says white women are violent.

[MsSafina]

Time Magazine published the following article about white women and the "Karen" meme. I can't imagine what it's like being called Karen and white these days
time.com/5857023/karen-meme-history-meaning/

You don't realize it, but your push linguistically to redefine everything in USian terms, through the lens of your history, is colonialist.
This is such a good point i think. The Internet and dominance of English as a spoken language means American culture is colonising the world.
That's maybe why people can't understand why "Karen" is offensive in British cultural terms.
Also why "Black lives matter" and their calls to defund the police isn't as applicable in the UK where the history and practice of policing is very different to the US.

The Internet and dominance of English as a spoken language means American culture is colonising the world.

Yes, the US is trying to export their culture and do not seem to understand that shared language is not shared culture. English is also the most common international language and used between say China and Saudi Arabia because its more likely that a Chinese diplomat would know English than Arabic and for the Saudi diplomat to also know English instead of Mandarin Chinese. English is the most widely spoken language in the world for this reason.
So to assume that with understanding and speaking English there is also the same culture is ridiculous. The language is completely separate from the cultures/countries that use it. Even countries that have English as their official language- U.K., USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, Antigua, South Africa, etc. Have very different histories and cultures.

I live in the US, and the men here are much more violent than the women, much more obsessed with guns and weapons. They're also more abusive verbally.
Singling out White women for behaviors that White men are engaging in at the same rate, or more often (like not wearing masks), looks like misogyny.
It's becoming hip to pretend White privilege is the reason White women are getting negative attention, yet there's not as much interest in White men doing the exact same things.

We need to stop importing USAmerican shit.

Even countries that have English as their official language- U.K., USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, Antigua, South Africa, etc. Have very different histories and cultures.

Don't forget India, where English is the only unifying language -- no much so that South Indians use it as their ONLY second language, next to their local language such as Tamil, Telugu, etc.
South Indians refuse to accept Hindi as their official second language; it's quite a political issue. Most don't know Hindi, but they do know English; and it's the language of all Indians in the diaspora.

@Malahaha
Yes, India too. Thank you for adding them in as it is a great example.

The title alone is just irritating: How the 'Karen Meme' Confronts the Violent History of White Womanhood

The fact there are many Karen memes is not a testimony to the fight against evil racist white women, it's just showing a bunch of d*ckheads being sexist and ageist.

Having read most of the thread I think there's a disconnect between people who don't have a problem with the Karen memes because they don't approve of the behaviour of the women being called it, and think that those who are against it do.

I think it's good to call out such women or people in general if they're acting badly. If you create a negative word for a white middle-aged woman though it's going to be abused by ageists and sexists. It's not comparable to "MAGA man" as it's not about what you support or believe.

The title irritates me too “violent history of white womanhood” and the only thing they explain that as is how historically white men felt they should protect white women from nonwhite men.
Yet they fail to acknowledge that this time in history wasn’t white women demanding protection and ordering white men to be violent to preserve their white womanhood. This was from a patriarchal place of white men viewing white women as their personal property and that they were not going to allow any woman of theirs (daughter, sister, ex girlfriend, etc) to have a relationship with a nonwhite man.
In addition, the violence that occurred was primarily directed against the nonwhite man but often also included harming the white woman for her relations with a nonwhite man. There were many many women murdered by angry fathers, brothers, etc because they’d dishonoured the family by walking out with a nonwhite man. The misogynist phrase “damaged goods” comes from that part of history. The woman is merely “goods” an owned thing, and she is “damaged” because she’s been ruined by her association with a nonwhite man and so what do you do with “damaged goods” ? You get rid, you throw them on the streets to be homeless prostitutes or you quietly murder them and stick a fake suicide note by the body.

Really good point Malahaha.

The Internet and dominance of English as a spoken language means American culture is colonising the world

A difference I've noticed between the UK and the USA is that many Americans, who consider themselves left wing, seem to have little or no interest in class perspective/analysis and sometimes even contrary to it.

That such class divisive political movement like BLM is called left wing or "Marxist" there is laughable really

It’s not ANY woman. It’s a white woman.
Black women can deal with it, hardly the first time being called names.

In the UK, it appears to be used as a way to shut women up. Nothing to do with racism a lot of the time either. And yes, it seems to be used towards any women, not 'whiten women'. Might be different in US but here, misogynists have just latched onto another way to abuse women while pretending to be progressive.

Most of my closest friends are white women. I also have a few very close friends who are white men. (In fact, I don't have a single close friend who is a black man possibly because of where I've lived most of my life but still.)

I just re-read this post of mine. I meant to say.
I also have a few very close friends who are black men.

Racist, white, middle-aged entitled women, informally referred to as Karens,

It's much more indiscriminate than that. As someone said, I've seen women being denounced as Karens for not wearing a mask, and also for asking others to wear masks. So it's more about just being female and existing. In the U.K., this term isn't about race that much, it's pure misogyny. If people use a misogynistic term I will "call it out" too.

A difference I've noticed between the UK and the USA is that many Americans, who consider themselves left-wing, seem to have little or no interest in class perspective/analysis and sometimes even contrary to it.

Yes this! It's so frustrating as class unites people a lot more. And I worry it's happening here. The labour party don't seem to talk about class as much. There are obviously links between race and class with a higher proportion of some ethnic groups represented in the working class.

Isn't the real problem with the Karen meme that the original stereotype was a woman who was white middle aged and middle class - ie inherently privileged in every way except her sex and trying to find a way around that one lack of privilege by weaponising it - and also racist but it has now become a stick to beat any woman who matches any other one of those characteristics. Then you get the Karen meme attached to a woman who is middle aged and calls someone out on bad behaviour (eg taking their mask off when they get on the tube) and she is labelled a Karen which has the residual racist undertone which is probably more distressing than being called a bitch tbh.

Yes that's a good point, LondonMummy. But the racism element is really an American thing, which is why it's not necessarily used in the same way here and is just "any middle aged woman I don't want to listen to".

It’s not ANY woman. It’s a white woman.

Usually yes, but I’ve seen Asian women also called Karen. Remember the Asian woman in the lift that refused to let go of the open door button because she didn’t want to share the elevator alone with a black man who was agitated and racially abusing her about Covid? She was called “Asian Karen” in the news and by the black man who filmed it and posted it on his social media.

Sidestepping the "Karen" issue, I find it really concerning that women are being held responsible for male violence in this way. How many women have been told "you shouldn't have provoked him?" Or are expected to know better? How many women and children live their lives walking on egg shells because the adult men in their lives aren't expected to be able to control their own actions?

When police are so uniformly violent that women are scared to call them when being threatened by their own partners because it might end up in a shooting then quite blatantly the problem is not with the women, it is with the police and their training.

Why are we widening the concept of violence to point the finger at women when there are so many serious issues with actual violence to be resolved?

Why are we widening the concept of violence to point the finger at women when there are so many serious issues with actual violence to be resolved?

Exactly. That’s a key problem with the article using the word “violent” to describe Karen behaviour. It’s not violence at all! And even if the behaviour might possibly maybe one in ten thousand times lead to violence being done by another person, that still doesn’t make the woman guilty of any violent behaviour.

quite blatantly the problem is not with the women, it is with the police and their training.. Yes, my opinion too when I mentioned upthread the focus should be on police brutality and violence instead of blaming whoever called them.

YY

De-militarise the police.

Standardise training across states, using the higher quality training as the standard.

Challenge gun culture. Get guns off the streets and out of homes.

I agree these things sound hard. I'm glad I don't have to agitate for it. I agree that calling ww violent and blaming them for issues with policing is easier, and likely more satisfying.

Still, putting moral and political energy into shaming other women is not likely to be effective in the long run, and discouraging any woman from seeking police assistance when encountering male violence of any hue is hardly feminist.

Yes, the US police is heavily militarised compared to other countries this is because when the US military has excess equipment, they give police departments the right to simply request this stuff be transferred to them. And it’s everything an Army might need. Automatic machine guns, sniper rifles, body armour, armoured vehicles, drones with weapons, etc. Terrifying.

@PlanDeRaccordement

The title irritates me too “violent history of white womanhood” and the only thing they explain that as is how historically white men felt they should protect white women from nonwhite men. Yet they fail to acknowledge that this time in history wasn’t white women demanding protection and ordering white men to be violent to preserve their white womanhood. This was from a patriarchal place of white men viewing white women as their personal property and that they were not going to allow any woman of theirs (daughter, sister, ex girlfriend, etc) to have a relationship with a nonwhite man. In addition, the violence that occurred was primarily directed against the nonwhite man but often also included harming the white woman for her relations with a nonwhite man. There were many many women murdered by angry fathers, brothers, etc because they’d dishonoured the family by walking out with a nonwhite man. The misogynist phrase “damaged goods” comes from that part of history. The woman is merely “goods” an owned thing, and she is “damaged” because she’s been ruined by her association with a nonwhite man and so what do you do with “damaged goods” ? You get rid, you throw them on the streets to be homeless prostitutes or you quietly murder them and stick a fake suicide note by the body.

This.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Yes, the US police is heavily militarised compared to other countries this is because when the US military has excess equipment, they give police departments the right to simply request this stuff be transferred to them. And it’s everything an Army might need. Automatic machine guns, sniper rifles, body armour, armoured vehicles, drones with weapons, etc. Terrifying.

So it is in part a problem of it's own hegemony.

Look, I accept that some ww are racist, and that this occurs in a certain historic context.

But how the hot take of 2020 - all ww are immeasurably privileged, and they are particularly to blame, as a class, for US social ills, became accepted as The Truth is wild, revealing of high levels of culturally sanctioned misogyny, and an unwillingness to view the ills as multifactorial.

If the only two choices for a ww in the US is confessing to racism, or being accused of racism? Well, I get it. It probably feels good, when the boot is on your neck, to have someone its possible to blame and shame, and we often choose to scapegoat 'safer' targets. But surely it's more politically effective to draw other women in to tackle root causes?

Militarism of police in the US is a very US specific phenomenon. I don't know if I think it is inextricably linked to racism (given other countries with racism problems don't militarize their police) although it clearly exacerbates the effects.

Idk. Outsiders probably can't help much with that either, but it's certainly a graspable, quantifiable, fact-based call for international solidarity.

Being asked to call ww Karen's, otoh, is just....well...

I don’t mind badly behaving white women being called Karen for specific racist entitled behaviour, but think it should stop there.

It’s the exaggeration of Karen behaviour as violent or ascribing to Karens as being the real or current cause of racism in the US that is so fundamentally wrong. And you are right @BlackWaveComing, it’s culturally sanctioned misogyny and the scapegoating of an easy target.