Time Magazine says white women are violent.

[MsSafina]

Time Magazine published the following article about white women and the "Karen" meme. I can't imagine what it's like being called Karen and white these days
time.com/5857023/karen-meme-history-meaning/

The thread is saying are white women violent.

I'm going with, as a group, lots less violent than other groups I can think of.

So maybe that helps with the thread.

we have at least as much in common with France as we do with the USA

I would say we have a lot more in common with France than we do with the USA, in that most racial minorities originate in relatively recent immigration from former colonies. Also they are more likely to be a different religious background to the majority. The UK and France (along with other European countries) certainly have problems with racism, but they are have different roots to the USA.

Humans in general can be violent. Men, women, children- we all have the capacity to be violent and every day some are violent. It shouldn’t be a contentious issue that white women can be violent.

I do think it’s divisive and faintly ridiculous to call out white women specifically for their violence like they are some sort of outlier committing excessive violent acts because they are white and are women. They’re not.

Really the focus should be on police violence, especially in the US. The police are trained to be violent and are authorised by society to use violent force on people. There is definitely a toxic process that turns average men and women of all races into police officers who then commit unnecessary and often lethal violence. Their training needs to be completely over hauled to include anti-racism measures and defusing/de-escalating situations instead of resorting to violence. A certain amount of defensive violence is to be expected as they deal with violent criminals, but when you compare the US to other similar countries, the US police far and away kill more unarmed civilians per capita than are reasonably excusable by accidental crossfire events.

Women as a class commit fewer acts of violence than men as a class. There is no racial subset of women who engage in violent acts at the same rate as men as a class.

Hth.

Like others outside the US, I'm pretty sick of US cultural imperialism. The US is an outlier in many ways, and much of US experience lacks relevance in the UK, Europe or the Commonwealth.

@NiceGerbil

No white women in the UK don't call the cops to come and shoot black men.

The met do have form for killing black men, amongst a host of other issues. However that's not a good topic because what's important isn't black men being killed but white women in a totally different country saying yes it's my fault.

I mean none of you have seen fit to say anything about the UK cases. Seems this stuff doesn't cut both ways doesn't it.

I mean none of you have seen fit to say anything about the UK cases

How many times have you said this now? Why don't you start up a thread about UK police violence against black men then? I bet you won't because you only care about the issue of white women really, don't you.

This is a thread about an article in an AMERICAN magazine. So yeah, we're talking about America - as well as Britain. Because you know what, everything American travels to the UK, or haven't you noticed, we're practically the same culture.

1st Rule of Misogyny:

Women are responsible for what men do.

Feminism doesn't have to centre any men, regardless of their struggles. You think any men, including black men, centre women in their political struggles ?!

Feminism's only duty here is to women and girls - of all colours.

Plenty of issues where women's race intersects with their femaleness to be going on with. Maternal morbidity and mortality rates for black women? That's a feminist issue.

No we aren't practically part of the same culture wtf

Yes we've got MacDonalds but we don't have violent police armed with guns, very influential anti abortion crusaders, mass shootings as a matter of course etc.

Same culture my fucking arse.

I have started threads about these things in the past. Your assumptions about me and my views are baseless. You have never met me, you don't know me, and yet you see fit to say I have no interest in the actions of the met around racism and other issues. That's a pretty random assumption.

[quote turnitonagain]@EarthSight no I feel horribly disappointed that there is a contingent of white women who instead of coming to a sense of understanding about how BAME women have felt being stereotyped, they’ve instead painted themselves to be the true victims.

Most white women I know in real life - my friends and family - have become more sympathetic, not less. Which is why I find MN such a strange world on this subject.[/quote]
I sympathise with your position. You may feel that your struggles have been neglected, ignored, but please remember that just because women are angry about the meme, it mean they're not sympathetic to the struggles of BAME women.

Because you know what, everything American travels to the UK, or haven't you noticed, we're practically the same culture.

I don’t agree. I’m French, but have lived in both the U.K. and US and I observed that the cultures are very different from each other.

@BlackWaveComing
“Women as a class commit fewer acts of violence than men as a class. There is no racial subset of women who engage in violent acts at the same rate as men as a class.”

Exactly! And watering down the definition of violence to include being a bystander or vaguely associated with an actual violent person to try and paint women as particularly violent or just as violent is a misogynistic injustice.

Calling out a specific type of problem (middle aged white women acting entitled, and being racist) does not mean women are being blamed for all racism.

Just as trump supporting white men aren't exclusively to blame for racism - they don't become less racist just because others are also racist.

Just as black on black crime exists. That doesn't make white on black crime or black on white crime any better.

Calling out one isn't BLAMING ONLY ONE.

Racist, white, middle-aged entitled women, informally referred to as Karens, are a real problem in the states at the moment. You've got to be totally blinkered not to see it.

Refusing to call out women solely because they're women is not feminism. Denouncing any criticism of a woman is not feminism.

I'm not sure that posting call outs on a site for British women is a helpful and productive way to deal with the presenting problem of 'white, middle-aged women in the US'.

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/yjlf/vol4/iss1/3/&ved=2ahUKEwiSy9m1jcLtAhXPxjgGHVqbC-oQFjABegQIAxAL&usg=AOvVaw3l8Y0MDI7bGlJMkN3Lwo19" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/yjlf/vol4/iss1/3/&ved=2ahUKEwiSy9m1jcLtAhXPxjgGHVqbC-oQFjABegQIAxAL&usg=AOvVaw3l8Y0MDI7bGlJMkN3Lwo19

@TriflePudding it’s to show that when sex is prioritised as an identity over race, white women are the primary beneficiaries. So when asking “who does it benefit to divide women by race” my response to you is “who does it benefit not to.”

Ok, if it benefits you to prioritize race, that's fine. Nobody can do all the activism. Don't expect ww not do women's rights though.

It honestly doesn't matter which group comes along asking me to centre men in my activism - black men, working class men, disabled men, gay men - I'm gonna keep on keeping on putting my time, money and energy into feminism.

Which, it goes without saying, includes all girls and women, not just the white ones.

I just thinks it's kinda random to tell a whole group of women to stop doing their own activism, and start doing someone else's.

*It honestly doesn't matter which group comes along asking me to centre men in my activism - black men, working class men, disabled men, gay men - I'm gonna keep on keeping on putting my time, money and energy into feminism.

Which, it goes without saying, includes all girls and women, not just the white ones.*

What you think you’re doing, and what you actually are doing, may not be the same thing.

Not sure how focusing on how racism harms black women is centering men. A black mother fearing for her children’s lives - male and female - is a feminist issue in my opinion.

That's moving the goalposts.

The demand was to centre black men, and the supposed epidemic of violence they are currently receiving from white women.

Because apparently the fact that most violence is male on male is the fault of ww.

Meantime, no man is ever asked to centre women!

No...many of the “Karen” videos have been focused on black and minority women also.

news.yahoo.com/california-karen-goes-racist-rant-162343794.html

Having said that, it was Christian Cooper’s sister who initially posted the Central Park incident on Twitter. A black woman looking out for her male relative. Perhaps out of allegiance to the sisterhood she should have kept quiet? What do you think?

What I think is that people trying to drag non-US feminists into US specific race issues, as if it's our duty to drop everything and pay attn to the US! are wasting their time.

I'm not American, I don't know Americans, I could call out the 'violence' of white American women and achieve precisely zero.

Excuse me if I get back to the birthing kits we're making for our sisters in East Timor.

US problems are for USians to solve.

I have no idea why anyone would defend this article because they can show some particular examples of white women who are violent.

Of course you can/ You can find particular examples of every group that is part of the human race being violent.

But when you make a statement about a group you generally have to show that it applies to the group as a whole, or some large portion of the group, or more than it does to other groups.

The implication of a statement in a magazine that white women are violent, tespecially one that goes on to speak in generalisations, is that white women are more likely to be violent than one would expect based on their numbers.

Which the article simply hasn't shown to be true.

It's the same as if someone showed that actually, men are not more likely to be violent. If that was shown to be true it would be very misleading to say that men (as a group) are violent and I would hope, if the evidence was strong, that people would stop saying it. Though in that case we'd have the excuse that there had been good reason to think it was true.

We have no evidence that white women are more likely to be violent than any other group of women, or more likely to be violent to non-white women than other women. They certainly are not more violent than any group of men.

I'm fairly shocked that it was published in a reputable magazine.

What I think is that people trying to drag non-US feminists into US specific race issues, as if it's our duty to drop everything and pay attn to the US! are wasting their time.

Which is why I repeatedly comment on posts here made in US media about US issues and try to stop perhaps well meaning British women from inadvertently defending things in the name of female solidarity, that they don’t actually understand.

@turnitonagain

What I think is that people trying to drag non-US feminists into US specific race issues, as if it's our duty to drop everything and pay attn to the US! are wasting their time.

Which is why I repeatedly comment on posts here made in US media about US issues and try to stop perhaps well meaning British women from inadvertently defending things in the name of female solidarity, that they don’t actually understand.

Oh, we understand that the US has major issues, issues we can't do much about.

What pisses us off is when USians decide that their issues are everyone's issues. Call your own ww violent Karens if that's effective for you in terms of advancing your politics.

But don't do it to the rest of us. I'll give solidarity to the women, incl Blak women, from within our NOT THE US context.

You don't realize it, but your push linguistically to redefine everything in USian terms, through the lens of your history, is colonialist. Imo.

I've seen threads where posters have got really worked up over words that simply do not have the same meaning here as in America. And even when told. It doesn't mean that here. Have still been told to shut up.

This is totally off topic but I have to say it because it bugs me, and it's a seasonal thing:
Happy Christmas vs Happy Holidays.

The word Holiday has a completely different meaning in the US and the UK.
In the US, it means "celebration": Christmas, Hannukah, Thanksgiving, etc.

The word they use for our "holiday" is "vacation". For a UK person to say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Happy Christmas" makes no sense. Americans are not saying "Happy Vacations". Stop copying them!

Not sure how focusing on how racism harms black women is centering men. A black mother fearing for her children’s lives - male and female - is a feminist issue in my opinion.

Absolutely. As a black women, growing up I have actively been discriminated much more against on account of race than on account of being a woman. I've fortunately had very few negative experiences due to my sex.

Yet still: I feel far more solidarity with white women than with black men. If I had to be locked up in a prison house with only black men, or only white women -- three guesses which I'd choose.

Most of my closest friends are white women. I also have a few very close friends who are white men. (In fact, I don't have a single close friend who is a black man possibly because of where I've lived most of my life but still.)