Non binary daughter

[lovelilies]

My 15 year old has revealed she's non binary.
She's always been a 'tomboy', short hair, boys clothes etc, which I've always supported without much (I think) judgement.
I thought I was helping raise a feminist, she knows a lot about women's issues, we have a very close and open and liberal relationship.

She was diagnosedASD at 11, I know there seem to be more NB/ trans etc people with ASD. I myself have ADHD diagnosed as an adult. I'm female, straight, none feminine. I don't wear make up much (once a month if that), colourful but not 'ladylike' clothes, definitely not groomed don't know if that's relevant just trying to set the scene!

I'm struggling with the pronoun thing. They've changed their name to a unisex name (fine, it's their name, I can do that) but the whole them/they thing really doesn't sit right!
She's a girl to me, my daughter. She doesn't have to be 'girly' but I don't get why she can't just be herself WHILE being a girl?
I will chat more with her, I just want the dust to settle a bit so I don't upset her. She's sent me a link tonight for a chest binder (she's very large of bust - 28 FF) I don't know whether to buy her one? She says she's saving up for it.

She does have a boyfriend, he's supportive of these changes which I'm surprised about but also glad. He is cis male and 'straight'. They've been together a year and are sexually active. I asked if she wants to be a bit but she said no, thankfully.

Just after some opinions, advice, anything? I'm secretly hoping it'll run it's course and she will be comfortable being herself.

Thanks for listening!

*be a BOY that's meant to say- damn autocorrect

She's always said she is angry that women/girls are weaker than men.
I've tried to turn this into a positive by showing her our strengths and differences.
She was present when I gave birth to her little sister and it was an empower experience (home water hypnobirth).
She does want to be a mother in the future, one child, will breastfeed and co-sleep, home educate (she was home Ed for many years). So she does have these instincts which IMO go against the shunning of her 'gender'?
Apologies if I'm waffling, just putting down my thoughts.

I read this earlier on Twitter - it may have some useful advice.
www.bayswatersupport.org.uk/toptentips

Maybe read up on what binding does to breasts?! You're her mum and binding is self harm.
Talk to her about the words "sex" and "gender". What does she think they mean? What is their actual meaning? Buy her some feminist books about plastic surgery or anything that explains how women are trained to hate and dissociate from their bodies. Just as a boob job wouldn't be the solution to that societal problem, neither is harming healthy body parts eith binders. Print out a gallery of GNC women and ask her what makes them all women as opposed to NB?

Thank you, that's a brilliant article.
Thankfully I seem to be doing the right things so far...
Gosh it's difficult!

She could ruin her health with testosterone and she'd still be physically weaker, OP! In the gentlist way possible, you have to help her come to terms with reality. It's kinder in the long run. How about martial arts lessons where she can leatn to use her opponents size against him?

I know it must be hard to use new pronouns and names.

For now I think the main thing that would concern me would be any practical changes they are contemplating that might put themselves at risk, e.g. using male public loos. Unlikely I think but perhaps worth asking them what changes they are making, if any?

If it's just a case of presentation then that wouldn't bother me particularly.
If it's a case of not wanting to 'have a female gender' then it's different strokes for different folks, I don't personally think I have a gender but I'm still a woman. The world will still classify them into one of the two sexes at some point in their life. As long as they recognise that is going to happen then I think that's OK.

The binder would be the most concerning thing. Do they not think that non-binary people can have breasts? Isn't that exclusionary and body shaming? Please look into the physical repercussions of these.

I would perhaps leave off the realities of having a female body such as giving birth etc - as a 15 year old it's a bit of an abstract concept!

They can be as angry as they want about the average physical differences between men and women, but it won't change them. The way the world is organised around these physical differences is what is worth thinking about, and what measures are fair and what are oppressive.

She does martial arts already, she will be doing her Brown belt in Karate in December (or would have been if not for lockdown).

I will look into this binder thing more, I naively thought it would be like a kind of sports bra that just squashes boobs (I have tiny boobs aa that she is envious of).

We look at stuff together on the internet, I like to show her eg female athletes and their strong bodies, yet they're not trying to be men.

We've spoken in the past about differences between sex and gender, she's incredibly intelligent, looking at 9s across the board in GCSE and contemplating medicine as a career.

Do you think she had experienced wolf whistling or other unwanted attention that has made her feel unsafe as a young woman and wants to hide her figure to avoid being noticed? It’s so normal to feel uncomfortable with your body at that age and i read somewhere that for many/most teenagers a feeling of dysphoria which after all means a state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with life comes with the territory of adolescence

She hasn't asked to transition.
She hasn't asked for Testosterone or indicated that she would want it.

I do need to let her talk to me more about this but I also don't want her to obsess about it!
I also have a 6 yo son and 4 yo daughter who do take up a lot of my attention, but we do manage to spend some 1:1 time together.

This whole epidemic of gender dysphoria and sexuality questioning (some of her friends are gay/bi/trans) is quite foreign to me- I understand that it's common now, and do see a lot of it on social media (I've joined groups at her suggestion so I am reasonably well informed),

I do still find it strange that people can devote what seems like their every waking moment on examining and sharing and debating their sex/gender/identity etc rather than just getting on with their lives! Obviously I won't say as much to her, it sounds mean and unsupportive, I do find it all terribly self indulgent though if I'm honest.

She hasn't experienced any of that kind of attention, she always covers up, wears a rash vest and boys trunks for example when swimming.

I think it's more of a pre emotive strike if you know what I mean?

Pre-emptive

It's quite ironic, she has a figure 90% of girls would DIE for!
5'5, all arms and legs and enormous boobs, washboard stomach, not a single spot on her face.
I do regularly remind her that most people yearn for what they don't have (she has poker straight hair- lusts after her boyfriend's curly hair- she even practices the 'Curly Girl' method on him ) he's a good old stick.

Sorry I'm not replying by name- I can't figure out how to do it.

She is very clued up on personal safety, wouldn't use the men's loos etc. She does use the disabled at school more now I believe.

I remember being about 14 and going through a phase of wearing Metallica t shirts, German army shirts and bandanas. I imagine people would have said I was trans then, but I was just exploring clothes and identity.
Thankfully there wasn't so much hype about it (late 1990s) and we kind of just tried things out and moved onto the next phase!

Most 14 year old girls I know would HATE being a 28FF. It makes you a target of Male harassment, it makes it hard to do PE and sports, it’s difficult to find clothes to fit.

Is it possible that she wants a binder to deal with the practical problems of having big boobs? Where does she buy her bras right now?

Yes they are a pain.

We've tried many different bra shops/ online but all have not fitted properly or been uncomfortable. At the moment she wears a sports bra from M&S.

When running she doubles up with a crop top type sports bra in a small size. But obviously that makes breathing hard!

She has said she'd love a pretty bra like the ones in the shops with daisies on etc

There's no way she'd be granted a reduction on the NHS at her age I wouldn't have thought, plus she feels strongly about BF in the future

The only red flag here is the breast binding.

The pronoun thing is something you will get used to apologise in advance about the possibility of using the wrong ones, that it will take a while to break that habit.

It could be in time that they grow out of this and it’s just a phase or it could be that they’ve found a place were they feel comfortable.

There is now a 3rd option for people who don’t feel they fit with male or female. A lot of teenagers will come out the other end realising it’s just a phase, or that gender fluidity is fine. It’s certainly a better option than kids thinking they must be trans because they don’t fit into either box. ( nothing wrong with being trans either just it’s a harder change to come back from )

I have just realised that this post is on the feminist board and not the place for such discussions.

Thanks Bunnie.
That's more what I'm hoping for, just that she wants to sit in the middle and not be defined by her gender.

Why do you say this isn't the place for this type of discussion? I thought it might be a good place as (hopefully) fellow feminists would have some good suggestions regarding being female (I know that sounds weird now 🙈 it's late!)

@lovelilies

Yes they are a pain.

We've tried many different bra shops/ online but all have not fitted properly or been uncomfortable. At the moment she wears a sports bra from M&S.

When running she doubles up with a crop top type sports bra in a small size. But obviously that makes breathing hard!

She has said she'd love a pretty bra like the ones in the shops with daisies on etc

There's no way she'd be granted a reduction on the NHS at her age I wouldn't have thought, plus she feels strongly about BF in the future

You need to get her a couple of decent bras from somewhere like bravissimo. And a proper technical sports bra, not rubbish from m and s.

No she won’t be able to wear pretty flimsy Lacy ones, but she can have nice ones.

Why are you even thinking about surgery for her?????

Can you say why you think most teenage girls would like to have her figure ? Because that sounds like a lot of projection to me .

Bravissimo was crap. We've been twice and both times they just looked at her and guessed (30D 🙄) so had her trying on at least 15 bras, at the end of which, hot and bothered, none actually fit!

We've tried online, I've posted threads about it before asking advice, and I've spent hundreds of pounds on trying on different types and brands, not one has fit properly. Sending them back etc.

There are NO specialised shops within 150 miles of where we live.

The ones we have tried just shrug their shoulders and say sorry, try online.

It's very difficult, honestly I'd love to find some that fit!! Any recommendations I'll follow up on, if it's one we haven't already exhausted.

I'm not 'planning on surgery', it's a valid solution to extremely large breasts which are causing mental and physical distress.

just that she wants to sit in the middle and not be defined by her gender.

Obviously you know that most people don't want to be defined by their gender, or their sex. This is one way of reacting to that realisation. I would say a light touch is important and refrain from making generalisations about ideal figures etc, which do suggest that physical appearances are important to you (I know what you mean, I think, but it's possibly something they will latch on to).

The comment about girls wanting her figure comes from a place of seeing some of her female peers' insta accounts and their pictures... I'm glad she's not posing like them anyway!

Thank you
I'm not trying to be funny.

I put emphasis on strength and health when talking about body ideals

I agree that she might view the binder as a way to deal with her large chest, rather than realizing its health implications. I also don’t think it’s unusual for a teenager or even their parent to speculate about breast reduction surgery in the future.

My DD (15) also has a big chest and has asked me about reduction surgery. I said she needs to be an adult before considering such a step and as PP’s have advised, we have her fitted for good-quality bras/sports bras. Her underwear costs more than I’ve ever spent on mine.😂 But it’s worth it for her comfort and self-confidence. Could you suggest the same to your DD and say no to the binder?

Her decision to become non-binary may/may not last. I wouldn’t worry about it too much.

Sorry, I just saw your update on trying to find a good bra shop. I’m in the US so can’t advise. The hope someone else can.