Non binary daughter

[lovelilies]

My 15 year old has revealed she's non binary.
She's always been a 'tomboy', short hair, boys clothes etc, which I've always supported without much (I think) judgement.
I thought I was helping raise a feminist, she knows a lot about women's issues, we have a very close and open and liberal relationship.

She was diagnosedASD at 11, I know there seem to be more NB/ trans etc people with ASD. I myself have ADHD diagnosed as an adult. I'm female, straight, none feminine. I don't wear make up much (once a month if that), colourful but not 'ladylike' clothes, definitely not groomed don't know if that's relevant just trying to set the scene!

I'm struggling with the pronoun thing. They've changed their name to a unisex name (fine, it's their name, I can do that) but the whole them/they thing really doesn't sit right!
She's a girl to me, my daughter. She doesn't have to be 'girly' but I don't get why she can't just be herself WHILE being a girl?
I will chat more with her, I just want the dust to settle a bit so I don't upset her. She's sent me a link tonight for a chest binder (she's very large of bust - 28 FF) I don't know whether to buy her one? She says she's saving up for it.

She does have a boyfriend, he's supportive of these changes which I'm surprised about but also glad. He is cis male and 'straight'. They've been together a year and are sexually active. I asked if she wants to be a bit but she said no, thankfully.

Just after some opinions, advice, anything? I'm secretly hoping it'll run it's course and she will be comfortable being herself.

Thanks for listening!

When you getup to the bigger bra sizes it's so dependent on brand.

I buy from Bravissimo (never been to one of their shops), and know the brands and styles that fit me, and any time I get tempted and stray, I end up sending them back because they don't fit.

for me, the own brand are good, but Panache is just totally wrong for instance. I'd be tempted to order a range of sizes, styles and brands to try at home and zero in on what works for her.

Actually, post puberty girls don't grow much at all unless they put on weight /get fatter , so we did manage with the same skirt for many years.

Bit strange to get het up about schooling in the 50's though!

@Winesalot

Sorry I realise now it was not clear in that I meant it was not the place for my further comments.

I did clarify with @lovelilies that it was fine for her to post the question there and had been given a lot of helpful comments and suggestions.
I don’t like the feminist boards there is always a lot of uproar if you don’t toe the party line so to speak.

Odd that you’re defending it, really. Personally, having to wear different clothes because the teachers didn’t think my body was womanly enough would have been deeply humiliating. It’s hard enough being a late developer, let alone having to be publicly shamed for it on a daily basis.

I don't think it's a discussion relative to this thread. There were many rules back then that you might not have approved of.

I did not have the sense of being publicly "shamed". I just wanted to grow up quicker and have a woman's body. I certainly was not "deeply humiliated". I knew I'd get there one day, and I did. Guess what, I never thought twice about it once I was in my skirt at last!

These are really first world problems. You know what, we all got over any sense of being childish and nobody was traumatised, unlike a girl having to share a changing room with a boy, which is what some schools today are up to.

@lovelilies sorry I haven’t got anything useful to add, but you sound like you’re a really wonderful and supportive mother

@RealityNotEssentialism and furthermore, we all knew what was going on. Over the school year one by one the girls in the class changed to skirts as they outgrew their tunics. I just happened to be the last. There's always a "last one" and it's good to be able to deal with that.

Sorry bunnies. Obviously I misread it myself. I read it in conjunction with the other poster who was telling lillies off about the pronoun crime.

I would hope that you would continue to post on this board as long as you were centring females though. Of course, any posts trying to shame women for talking about their rights get robustly argued. As long as you don’t take that tactic, I would hope you would find welcome.

[quote Bunniesitmustbebunnies]@Winesalot

Sorry I realise now it was not clear in that I meant it was not the place for my further comments.

I did clarify with @lovelilies that it was fine for her to post the question there and had been given a lot of helpful comments and suggestions.
I don’t like the feminist boards there is always a lot of uproar if you don’t toe the party line so to speak.[/quote]
So far the only people being unsupportive are the people saying the feminist boards are unsupportive.

It is a shame that your child doesn't feel they can just be gender non conforming without having to make pronoun/identity statements. This is directly because of how young people are being taught via internet and peer group to define their identity all the time. Something that I would be asking is how many of their friends are identifying as something. Most of the girls in my ASD daughter's friend group are identifying as trans and they keep asking her what her identity and sexual preferences are (they much up sex, gender and sexuality a lot) We have had a lot of discussions about her being an individual and that she doesn't need to make pronouncements to anyone. Saying to DD that she has a right to privacy actually enabled her to not feel she had to make any grand statements.

@AvocadoBathroom not sure why that was in response to my comment, I make no apologies for disliking the feminist boards, but I fail to see how I have been unsupportive, perhaps I’ve missed someone else making unsupportive comments who also dislike the feminist board, if so then perhaps you could have quoted them.

@Winesalot

I have seen a lot of thought provoking and interesting statements on these boards but too often for my liking it get lost in some horrible statements. Who knows I may come back. This is the first post that I have agreed with most of the comments posted.

Of course, any posts trying to shame women for talking about their rights get robustly argued. As long as you don’t take that tactic, I would hope you would find welcome..

And by this, I mean the tactic of shaming women for talking about their rights. Robustly presenting arguments for what you believe is always welcome but you may need to show unbiasely reviewed studies, stats and other evidence of your point of view is to be believed by others.

Having got time to read the thread but we’ve been through the full trans spectrum with my stepdaughter and back out the other side.

NB is a really easy way for a straight teen to become part of the LGBT group. All the interesting weird kids who used to be goth/emo/punk whatever are now identifying as LGBT.

Pronouns are for when someone isn’t present so I would offer to compromise by trying not to use any when your daughter is in ear shot, but I wouldn’t accept a teen dictating my speech beyond that.

I wouldn’t go any further than a gender nonspecific nickname based on a birth name either, using her initial is a reasonable compromise. A new name allows for the old self to be jettisoned too easily, and keeping contact with material reality is important.

A binder won’t disguise a very large chest anyway - it’ll just make her look lumpy when clothed and prematurely droopy when naked. Binders can cause breathing difficulties and cause permanent damage to ribs, so they were non-negotiable in our household.

A surgical reduction might be a viable option at some point, but I would take all mention of surgery off the table until she is over 18 anyway. She’ll have to pay for it privately, most likely.

As a once very similar sized girl I can wholly sympathise with your DD and might have found the idea of breast bindng attractive.

Ignore the stupid name but this website sells sports bras of all sorts. I wear Panache Sport Ultimate Non-Wired Sports Bra all the time, every day! It took a while to find the one I liked best but now I have I am, at last, back pain and shoulder strain free and highly unlikely to wobble if I move at anything faster than a standstill (38GG).

Your DD may feel quite differently about her body if she can find a bra that feels good! Oh! I was a kickboxercise instructor when I found the bra that suits eme best!!

www.boobydoo.co.uk/

www.ftmtopsurgery.ca/blog/ftm-faq/health-consequences-chest-binding/

This is a pro trans website (selling top surgery, ie double mastectomy) but it’s worth reading for it’s frank admission of the problems binders can cause. The larger the breasts, the more extreme compression is required.

Binding just isn’t safe.

Your DD’s breasts are obviously causing her sincere distress, but trans ‘solutions’ are not really solutions at all. As has been mentioned up thread ‘coming out’ is often immediately followed by poorer mental (and associated poorer physical health).

Take DD’s distress seriously, whilst helping her find actual solutions.

One of the clinicians who publicly quit GIDs is available for relatively affordable video therapy sessions.

Haven't read the whole thread, but just wanted to chip in about buying bras for a narrow back but big cup. It's worth teaching yourself how to measure for a bra. I used to do it for a living & it's not difficult to get the basic measurent, then find out what to look out for which will tell you when to go up a cup size or down a back size etc. There must be YouTube videos.
Then for brands try fantsie (might be a bit middle aged) , or a brand called Freya which is (I think) the same company but younger style. A big John lewis will have the right kinds of brands, but if you can measure her properly for a bra you can spend the time in a shop that stocks lots of that type of size, or order online more accurately. Sorry if you've already done all this!

medium.com/@kirstyentwistle/an-open-letter-to-dr-polly-carmichael-from-a-former-gids-clinician-53c541276b8d

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/counselling/dr-kirsty-entwistle/744787

Just adding the details of the clinician I mentioned up thread.

OP I’m a similar size (28G) and I’d suggest trying Shock Absorber sports bras by Panache. They come up very tight in the band, the 30 is like a tight 28, but they are the best I’ve found over the years. I don’t usually like Panache as a brand as the wires are usually too high in the armpits, but somehow they’ve got the Shock Absorber just right. It also comes up high at the front, so no cleavage, which is an advantage.

'
It was a simple uniform rule,as many school still have. A skirt needed hips to hold it up, otherwise it would not fit properly'

??

Men wear kilts?
Many schools use kilts.
On skirts, ours was an A-line although many girls got a tight straight one in instead and the skirts never fell down.

Sounds really shit to me as well. I'm very very glad this sort of thing doesn't go on now! Weird to defend it, I agree.

@rhowton

I had huge boobs as a teenage and hated it! So so much. I had my breast reduction earlier this year and my biggest regret is that I didn't do it earlier. If my DDs have the same problems as I did, I will be paying privately at 18 for them to have the same. You can still breast feed in some cases but the sheer delight of pert little boobs is unbeatable. I had so much attention from men/boys outside of school but luckily I was at a girls school so wasn't too bad.

This is what my DD says to me and it’s true that even in an oversized sweatshirt or T-shirt (she often borrows her Dad’s T-shirts) her chest is obvious. She gets attention from all ages and it’s scary when a man older than her Dad openly stares at her.☹️

I’ve said they we can discuss a reduction when she’s 18 and we’ll look into all the options. She may have it the summer between school and university, we’ll be following the medical advice.
It’s an issue that B-cup people like me don’t really understand unless we try- and I know how I’d have felt if I got that type of attention in my teens.

Just to say that I feel much less self conscious in the molke bra, it's a bit less lifting , more just stopping bounce around, and quite a few people commented I appeared to have lost weight when I switched so it might help a little take some attention away

I have been through this with both my sons. It's been a soul destroying few years and I wish I had been more pared and clued up as to what I was entering into. Both my sons ordered the non binary to start with and after that both rapidly signed up and were desperate to board the trans train. Thankfully that note passed for my eldest son at 21 but if I hear my 17 year say he wants to amputate his penis just one more then I'm going to scream and commit murder.

You need to consider where your daughter is getting this info from. I have blocked all access to Reddit, discord, etc and totally blocked all 18+ porn content. I did this through the sky Buddy app and it means nobody can access anything I don't want through my router. May seem harsh but it's my house and I pay for that router and internet. Me doing nothing would be like me trying to put out a fire with petrol. Things have improved greatly since then but my youngest son still insists in walking around in Lacy crop tops and saying he is an asexual girl at times. I have told him that if he still wants a penis amputation at 25 then we will sort his and he'll pay for it. Because I know he won't still want it then.

It's been a horrible 4/5 years to be honest.

I think you’re doing all the right things OP. As you said, hopefully it will run its course and eventually she’ll feel more comfortable and find acceptance.

@NiceGerbil

' It was a simple uniform rule,as many school still have. A skirt needed hips to hold it up, otherwise it would not fit properly'

??

Men wear kilts?
Many schools use kilts.
On skirts, ours was an A-line although many girls got a tight straight one in instead and the skirts never fell down.

Sounds really shit to me as well. I'm very very glad this sort of thing doesn't go on now! Weird to defend it, I agree.

Oh come on. It wasn't a big deal. It's about getting new uniform when you grow our of your old one due to your body changing. Like some girls got to wear bras and some didn't. We didn't all develop at the same rate. I was a year younger than the oldest girl -- I accepted that reality.

Young girls wore tunics, older girls wore skirts. What's so dreadful about that?

I get the feeling that a couple of young wokish women are trying to lecture their grandma and what she should have felt!!! (I've never agreed about the validity of the veru "to shame". Nobody can "shame" me. It's up to me to feel shame or not, and I didn't.)

If we're going to blame anyone, blame biology that has us developing at different rates.

People just didn't make such a fuss about these matters back then. I think we were far more realistic. And yes, the school still exists, it's still excellent, and I'm sure the uniform has changed in the last 50-something years.

No, you said that people without developed hips (female) can't wear skirts because they don't fit.

That's why people are ????!!!