Non binary daughter

[lovelilies]

My 15 year old has revealed she's non binary.
She's always been a 'tomboy', short hair, boys clothes etc, which I've always supported without much (I think) judgement.
I thought I was helping raise a feminist, she knows a lot about women's issues, we have a very close and open and liberal relationship.

She was diagnosedASD at 11, I know there seem to be more NB/ trans etc people with ASD. I myself have ADHD diagnosed as an adult. I'm female, straight, none feminine. I don't wear make up much (once a month if that), colourful but not 'ladylike' clothes, definitely not groomed don't know if that's relevant just trying to set the scene!

I'm struggling with the pronoun thing. They've changed their name to a unisex name (fine, it's their name, I can do that) but the whole them/they thing really doesn't sit right!
She's a girl to me, my daughter. She doesn't have to be 'girly' but I don't get why she can't just be herself WHILE being a girl?
I will chat more with her, I just want the dust to settle a bit so I don't upset her. She's sent me a link tonight for a chest binder (she's very large of bust - 28 FF) I don't know whether to buy her one? She says she's saving up for it.

She does have a boyfriend, he's supportive of these changes which I'm surprised about but also glad. He is cis male and 'straight'. They've been together a year and are sexually active. I asked if she wants to be a bit but she said no, thankfully.

Just after some opinions, advice, anything? I'm secretly hoping it'll run it's course and she will be comfortable being herself.

Thanks for listening!

Thank you for all the helpful replies and experiences. To the lady with the sons, I can't imagine how awful it is for you. Even though nothings 'happened' I feel sad that my DD has 'gone'. I love her.

I will definitely look into ordering the shock absorber and probably a Molke bra. It really is not something I can identify with as my chest is v small, I had a breast augmentation at 25 then subsequently removed because of the PIP scare.

The lady with the step DD- that's very helpful to hear your experience, thank you.

I really don't want her MH to suffer, she's very susceptible to absorbing her friends' stresses, in Y11 now so worrying about her future in this pandemic, all this identity labelling is really harmful I feel, and totally unnecessary!

I'm thankful she has this steady boyfriend so hopefully that will keep her grounded.
I will definitely spend time doing some positive activities with her, she has got into crocheting recently so there's always yarn!

I shall keep popping back to this thread for ideas and reassurance though, honestly I'm so grateful, it's made me quite emotional

@BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero

medium.com/**@kirstyentwistle**/an-open-letter-to-dr-polly-carmichael-from-a-former-gids-clinician-53c541276b8d

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/counselling/dr-kirsty-entwistle/744787

Just adding the details of the clinician I mentioned up thread.

I've emailed her, thank you.

This is a bit off topic but Your daughter doesn’t sound like she had an enormous chest at all more a small frame. So she’s slim with a small rib cage. She’s developed relatively recently so still getting used to her new shape.

Maybe no need to keep emphasising her shape to her. Get her new bras then her boobs are part of her, end of discussion.

I say this as a former skinny kid people assumed was a boy who developed 28gg over a summer aged 10.

she has got into crocheting recently so there's always yarn!

Oh God no please don't let her get sucked into woke knitting groups online....
I'm sadly not even joking!
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3809276-Purity-spirals

@NiceGerbil

No, you said that people without developed hips (female) can't wear skirts because they don't fit.

That's why people are ????!!!

Oh gosh, that's me properly scolded then.

I don't know what the exact reasoning was. I was a child. I was told back then that I needed to grow a little more, I think "fill out" was the word but I'm not sure; you know, waist and hips. I said it by-the-by, not as some manifesto of how a girl should be shaped, and may have been a bit careless with language. The point I was trying to make is that I envied girls with curvier bodies. I wanted a curvy body. That I grew out of my boyishness at that age, and wanted a girly shape, so I could be like the other girls.

The school was kind about it. I wasn't teased. I wanted breasts and waist and hips. In the holidays I wore a bra and filled it with sponges. This, after several years of tomboyishness. That's my point.

Yet somehow it's now about how I should have been outraged. I didn't expect to get a telling off because I wasn't politically correct enough!

They were fitted tweed skirts, slightly flared, if I remember rightly. Probably the smallest size was too big for me, as they were bespoke, made by the outfitters Forsythe's of Edinburgh specifically for senior girls. Maybe they only had certain, bigger, sizes. Maybe younger, smaller girls were too small and child-shaped for them.

I wouldn't have wanted to walk around in a uniform three sizes too big for me. It would have looked silly.

And by the way, I didn't say "people without developed hips (female) can't wear skirts because they don't fit." I said clothes for a more developed girl won't fit a child, at least not well, especially if they were not available in child-sizes.

Pinafores for little girls and skirts for older girls has been a uniform staple forever. Less important since the advent of the elastic waist band (late 70s early 80s?)

Bit of a weird diversion to go down, but Malahaha’s experience isn’t an unusual one. My own big standard comp still had a different girls’ uniform for lower school (what is now years 7&8) of a tunic with elastic belt (with small zipped pocket for dinner money 😂). Was finally done away with on the grounds of cost in the lat 80s.

Anyway, OP, just ask lots of questions but don’t give DD anything to rail against. You don’t want to end up with a you v her situation. I imagine it’s very hard to be any kind of non-conforming/artsy or just-not-wanting-to-be-overtly-sexualised adolescent girl in 2020 and not try on the NB label for at least a bit.

I name change for the sake of it but always have a ‘du’ so if you read through any similar older threads you will find our story. Might write it up somewhere to easily link to at some point.

The crux is, try and unpick why your DD feels the way she feels, because NB and trans labels are often more of an obscuring factor than anything that will bring her greater insight or happiness.

One thing that might help with boobs is enduring she has strong core and chest muscles - self supporting, so more comfortable. And won’t make her seem bigger despite that old rhyme to go with chest exercises.

"She does want to be a mother in the future, one child, will breastfeed and co-sleep, home educate (she was home Ed for many years)".
How on earth do you know that she wants these things - what 15 year old talks about having one kid, breastfeeding, co sleeping etc. Don't take this the wrong way but I can't help feeling you have pushed her by being very domineering in her life. Clearly you are very 'pro' these things and have made it clear she will be like it too. You sound very intense OP, like you spend all the time talking about empowerment and women's issues and just, I don't know, encourage her to be 'right on' instead of just chilling out and being stupid. Apologies if not OP, best of luck. Ps, why did you say cis male instead of male? That sort of sums up what I am saying. Try saying male instead of cis, you aren't a trans activist. X

@ClaireP20

"She does want to be a mother in the future, one child, will breastfeed and co-sleep, home educate (she was home Ed for many years)". How on earth do you know that she wants these things - what 15 year old talks about having one kid, breastfeeding, co sleeping etc. Don't take this the wrong way but I can't help feeling you have pushed her by being very domineering in her life. Clearly you are very 'pro' these things and have made it clear she will be like it too. You sound very intense OP, like you spend all the time talking about empowerment and women's issues and just, I don't know, encourage her to be 'right on' instead of just chilling out and being stupid. Apologies if not OP, best of luck. Ps, why did you say cis male instead of male? That sort of sums up what I am saying. Try saying male instead of cis, you aren't a trans activist. X

Er, lots of children have very firm ideas of what they expect their live will be. They may change their minds a lot and go through phases of not having a clue, but the ideas can be very certain

@ClaireP20

"She does want to be a mother in the future, one child, will breastfeed and co-sleep, home educate (she was home Ed for many years)". How on earth do you know that she wants these things - what 15 year old talks about having one kid, breastfeeding, co sleeping etc. Don't take this the wrong way but I can't help feeling you have pushed her by being very domineering in her life. Clearly you are very 'pro' these things and have made it clear she will be like it too. You sound very intense OP, like you spend all the time talking about empowerment and women's issues and just, I don't know, encourage her to be 'right on' instead of just chilling out and being stupid. Apologies if not OP, best of luck. Ps, why did you say cis male instead of male? That sort of sums up what I am saying. Try saying male instead of cis, you aren't a trans activist. X

I agree. It's absolutely verboten on here to ever criticise how a woman parents her children but there were several things the OP posted which made my eyebrows rise. What you quoted is one and the bit about having a figure to die for, with enormous boobs is another and the throwaway remark that her daughter (aged 15) and her boyfriend have been together for a year and are sexually active.

Good luck op :)

Just to let you know, what one person want and envious of doesn't mean all people want it.

My friend hated her huge breast, she did get breast reduction but since having more kids and breastfeeding, her breast went back to its old size

Before having children, I also was a 28 / 30 F and there are only 2 decent bra makers that make that size in my experience; Freya and Fantasie. Try looking them up online and seeing if there’s anything suitable there. They are expensive - I used to spend at least £40 on average - but definitely worth it. I had terrible posture as a teenager as I was always trying to minimise how big my breasts looked but eventually I got used to it. When it comes down to it, most people are not bad-mannered dickheads and don’t stare or call out - it’s only a few bad ones and once you realise that you don’t have to let them have power over you, it’s a lot easier to deal with.

I feel the same way as you regarding the pronoun thing, and non-binary and gender identity being extremely self-indulgent, but your daughter is only young and as we get older, we naturally become less interested in defining who we are for other people and find other things to focus energy on so maybe it will pass.

I’m assuming that your DD is on a hormonal contraceptive like the pill or an implant. That might be affecting her mood and / or giving her breast tenderness / discomfort.

I say this because you state that she is sexually active and no one in their right mind would be happy with their 15 year old relying on condoms alone.

I know you say that you are female OP but so much of what you write sounds like a man and coming from a male perspective . I find that Interesting, to hear a different view.

The fact that you think large boobs are fun and ‘to die for’ and that she should want to make other girls envious.

Your solution of a too tight sports bra on top of a normal one instead of one well fitting one.

You didn’t even mention the problem of large boobs until a poster raised it.

That you've never researched the dangers of chest binders and are happy for her to save up for one.

Your lack of concern about the risks of underage sex with her “ cis male “ boyfriend . Who has no age mentioned - something that would concern most mothers.

The fact that you imagine that “ covering up “ will prevent unwanted male attention . I don’t know any women who actually believe that - we all know it’s not true. Men will sexually harass all women wearing anything - it’s about power.

The slight victim blaming in the veiled suggestion that men don’t harass good girls who cover up. And that it’s just ‘ unwanted attention ‘.

The fact that you think that your DD being a biological mother is incompatible with being NB and that shes “ shunning her gender “. Many of the women here are mothers but have no gender, it’s very common.

You say you are “ none feminine “ and “ not ladylike “. I’ve never heard a woman say that about herself .

I find it very interesting how small and subtle these things seem but in fact they show such a different perspective.

Bravissimo is your daughter's friend op. I was a 30hh at that age. It's utterly miserable. M and S bras are awful. She will find pretty and stylish bras at Bravissimo. It honestly changed my life. They do clothes cut to fit as well. At that age I was saving up for a breast reduction. I suspect now I would be tempted by a binder. I am so glad I did neither.

I also wear an underwired sports bra rather than a crop top style. In fact I wear two! Again, Bravissimo all the way

I do think that having large breasts is a real disadvantage, and something it's hard not to be negative about. It's uncomfortable and limiting and can bring often unwanted attention. It emphasises your sex and not every teenager is comfortable with that. Perhaps your daughter is reacting against having large breasts rather than against being female. Hopefully if you help her to negotiate the issue of large breasts (a bra which is comfortable and downplays their size) and don't focus on her being a woman, she'll get over this stage without too much trauma.
I also found your comment that most teenagers dream of having large breasts odd. And in the context of the decision you yourself made to have a breast augmentation. Is she picking up on something there?

I also found your comment that most teenagers dream of having large breasts odd.

Each to their own I guess. Having seen my mother and second sister deal with back pain associated with their very large breasts, I have so much understanding for those who wish to have a reduction. I also did not envy them when I was a teenager one little bit when I turned out to be the opposite.

My dd is non-binary and 15.
I have sent you a PM Op.

I think many people on this thread are focussing on the boobs and how she needs a decent bra.

My dd wears a binder, she doesn't have large boobs, but for her, it is not about getting a good bra etc, it is about having a flat male chest.

Sorry, but a decent bra is not going to help that, it is going to make her boobs show more.
Not every binder is dangerous. I really objected to dd wearing one, then I found that she had used her savings and ordered one secretly. So we talked a lot about it. She had researched to find one that was not dangerous, was safe to wear all day. It gives her a flattened look which is what she wants.

How can something that squashes breasts flat ever be "safe"?

@SunsetBeetch

How can something that squashes breasts flat ever be "safe"?

It is no different to a sports bra or minimiser bra. It is simply elastic, and instead of 2 cups it has one flat face. So stops them jiggling uncomfortably and gives a flattened look, similar to a mono boob look from some sports bras.

As a parent you have a choice. Find a route through with your child, or drive them away. The route through involves compromise.

You can stand on your high horse and spout all your feminist theory, believe me I know and I have been there.
Or, you can think about what your child needs, and what they need is you. Beside them. Walking through the choices with them, not refusing to engage in any of the choices.

You can stand on your high horse and spout all your feminist theory, believe me I know and I have been there.
Or, you can think about what your child needs, and what they need is you. Beside them. Walking through the choices with them, not refusing to engage in any of the choices

Bit of a false dichotomy there. It may have been your experience but it’s not everyone’s.

I do think the only problem for the moment is the breastbinder. Can you talk with your child and discuss the health implications and damage to the body. Make it a fact that breasts are functional and are only there to feed a baby. Anything else is just in other people's minds. Perhaps draw on the fact that a minimiser bra is just a less severe and less permanant thing than the breast binder.

Nothing particularly "feminist theory" about being concerned that a young person may be permanently damaging their body, imo.

If there is evidence that breast binders don't damage breasts then so be it.

You seem a loving parent, OP.