Non binary daughter

[lovelilies]

My 15 year old has revealed she's non binary.
She's always been a 'tomboy', short hair, boys clothes etc, which I've always supported without much (I think) judgement.
I thought I was helping raise a feminist, she knows a lot about women's issues, we have a very close and open and liberal relationship.

She was diagnosedASD at 11, I know there seem to be more NB/ trans etc people with ASD. I myself have ADHD diagnosed as an adult. I'm female, straight, none feminine. I don't wear make up much (once a month if that), colourful but not 'ladylike' clothes, definitely not groomed don't know if that's relevant just trying to set the scene!

I'm struggling with the pronoun thing. They've changed their name to a unisex name (fine, it's their name, I can do that) but the whole them/they thing really doesn't sit right!
She's a girl to me, my daughter. She doesn't have to be 'girly' but I don't get why she can't just be herself WHILE being a girl?
I will chat more with her, I just want the dust to settle a bit so I don't upset her. She's sent me a link tonight for a chest binder (she's very large of bust - 28 FF) I don't know whether to buy her one? She says she's saving up for it.

She does have a boyfriend, he's supportive of these changes which I'm surprised about but also glad. He is cis male and 'straight'. They've been together a year and are sexually active. I asked if she wants to be a bit but she said no, thankfully.

Just after some opinions, advice, anything? I'm secretly hoping it'll run it's course and she will be comfortable being herself.

Thanks for listening!

That's not how it works. Women over about 35 are told what they are. Certainly not allowed to define themselves.

That is reserved for others.

As old as 35?

Piss off, I'm 48, and I define myself.

No fucker defines me.

I hope I’m not intruding by posting on this topic as a man, but would she be interested in something like powerlifting? It builds incredible strength and is very ‘macho’, but there is a good female community. It is a good way to feel ‘masculine’ without doing any irreversible damage.

I powerlift as a hobby and there are quite a few women at my gym. They seem to be split between those that are doing it to ‘improve their booty’ via deadlifts and squats etc, and those that are ‘butch’ and have short buzzcuts/present as very ‘masculine’ etc. I’m not exaggerating when I say this - as it’s a pretty specific gym it generally attracts people who want that type of gym and not the sort of people who want somewhere like a leisure centre/health club to use the cross trainer/treadmill.

@DeaconBoo

Who is teaching all these non-binary kids that non-binary people shouldn't have breasts? It seems quite body-shaming to me and definitely exclusionary. We should be inclusive of all body types rather than trying to change healthy bodies. I don't claim to understand why a non-binary person would want a 'male' chest as a default (as a PP described it). Male is one of the binary genders. This person is actively changing to a binary body shape.

I can absolutely understand anyone, regardless of gender identity, wanting to minimise breasts if they are causing discomfort. I do worry about binders though and this pressure to change to a 'male chest' as a PP described.

It’s not that they are being taught they shouldn’t. It’s is that having breasts can often give non binary people dysphoria. They don’t do it because they think they have to. They do it so they can feel comfortable in themselves.

How many teenage girls go through puberty and into womanhood without any feelings of dysphoria? How many have times when they don't feel comfortable in themselves?

I send you and your child my sympathies. It’s so hard being a teenager especially now.
At a practical level on the bra front, I share your frustration. According to my child, a good many of her peers also have sizeable cup sizes but are tiny in girth so 28DD, E or larger seem to be fairly common from 14 years up. The mainstream manufacturers don’t seem to have caught up at all. It sounds like Bravissimo failed you - we had better luck, but it still wasn’t great. The black lacy number they proffered wasn’t great for under school shirts, even with a nude camisole. We have had some success ordering through Next to access lots of brands. Its a real pain, but when I find one that fits and she likes I bulk buy!
I’m hoping that one of the side effects of lockdown and home working is that bra manufacturers start to focus more effort on function and comfort .....

It’s is that having breasts can often give non binary people dysphoria. They don’t do it because they think they have to. They do it so they can feel comfortable in themselves.

Do you mean breasts feel physically uncomfortable?
Or that having breasts means your body doesn't fit in with a specific image of being neither male nor female? Where does this image come from?

You've resurrected a zombie thread catsandbats

Any particular reason?

Well, I can guess at a reason

PLEASE READ THIS ITS IMPORTANT *

i am non binary . getting a binder is not self harm its quite the opposite getting your enby a binder cause potentially save their life and reduce the risk of self harm . being non binary does not mean they like to dress adrogynous or masculine and not feminine no its nothing about that , that's gender expression so how you express your gender . also don't call them a daughter or a girl call them an enby . being non binary means not being a girl or a boy so not identifying with the two genders . so stop trying to them in boxes where they don't belong , and stop looking for bras its useless even if you search the whole world for a bra that they like you wont find one because it makes them uncomfortable .

@maviblue123

PLEASE READ THIS ITS IMPORTANT ***

i am non binary . getting a binder is not self harm its quite the opposite getting your enby a binder cause potentially save their life and reduce the risk of self harm . being non binary does not mean they like to dress adrogynous or masculine and not feminine no its nothing about that , that's gender expression so how you express your gender . also don't call them a daughter or a girl call them an enby . being non binary means not being a girl or a boy so not identifying with the two genders . so stop trying to them in boxes where they don't belong , and stop looking for bras its useless even if you search the whole world for a bra that they like you wont find one because it makes them uncomfortable .

How about you stop telling women what to stop doing?

Hmmmm?

That's nice dear. Run along now.

so stop trying to them in boxes where they don't belong

Your body isn't a box. Your life isn't a box.

The quizzes young people do where they learn all these sayings like "how you express your gender" (aka, wearing stuff you like) are however very much BOXES. Lots of them.

Tick this box
Tick that box
Tick 20 boxes

Then an algorithm performs a binary calculation and spits out a definition from the box the resulting numerical sum points to.

It's reducing humans to a mathematical equation, something very reductive indeed, and is then aligned to a bunch of hyperbole about suicide and yet strangely self harm is definitely ruled out in this suicide algorithm.

Mmm

No boxes? It's the boxiest boxing box ticking thing going.

being non binary means not being a girl or a boy

What does this mean in practice?

I consider the terms to be no more than a biological fact. Identifying as non-binary has absolutely no impact on one's underlying biology.

What do the words 'boy' and 'girl' mean to you?

Please read this
IMPORTANT

Binders hurt you
They can restrict your ability to live a healthy life especially physical activity

They don't stop your boobs growing

They are about the appearance you present , focussing on the physical body in a harmful regressive way
Suicide rates in children snd young people are not going down as a result of greater support for different identities
Women from previous generations still live

maviblue123 Did you seek out this thread specifically to tell us off?

I'm going to be very kind to you because I guess you are very young. There are two sexes - male and female. That's it. This young woman is still a girl and a daughter, no matter how she personally identifies.

being non binary does not mean they like to dress adrogynous or masculine and not feminine no its nothing about that

Right-o. So why bind breasts if presentation has nothing to do with it?

Also ‘the two genders’?? I think you’ll find there’s a whole bunch of genders, not just two.

Welcome maviblue! Over many years most of the regular posters on fwr have discovered that we are non binary. Did you get a bit confused as to where you are posting?

Right-o. So why bind breasts if presentation has nothing to do with it?

They never answer. I'd like to know the answer to this too.

Binding is dangerous though. I would question the motives of someone who advised others to bind. Yes I'm talking to you maviblue123. And, regardless of gender identity, it's never possible to change sex. Male. Female. That's it. 🤷

'Non-Binary Is the New “Not Like Other Girls”
...and it’s deeply rooted in misogyny'

by M. K. Fain
14 Jul 2019

(extract)
"I’m sympathetic to the desire of many women and girls to escape our female-ness. Growing up as a girl-child in this society is not easy. You will never be pretty enough, smart enough, or wanted enough. Or you will be too pretty, too smart, or too wanted. Either way, it’s probably your fault. (continues)

concludes
Non-binary women are a testament to the great pain of being a woman, and the desperate need many of us have to find an escape. At the same time, women who claim to be non-binary throw all other women and girls under the bus. The claim that we are privileged for identifying with the sex “assigned to us at birth” misses the inherent violence in being a female under patriarchy. In some countries, 70% of women have experienced sexual or physical violence from an intimate partner. 137 women are killed every day by a member of their own family. At least 200 million women and girls alive today have experienced genital mutilation, mostly before the age of five. This is why feminists argue for sex-based rights for women and girls.

Those who are the most non-conforming, no matter how they identify, will face oppression for transgressing social norms. Women are especially likely to be targeted for violence and discrimination based on gender non-conformity. This is true regardless of how the woman identifies, since the attacker can not know the internal “gender identity” of the woman before the prejudice occurs.

The uncomfortable truth is this: saying you are “not like other girls” is not an identity, it’s misogyny. Non-binary-identifying women like to claim an extra degree of oppression over women who they call “cis,” a term which implies that certain women are complicit in their own oppression. But we are not privileged for maintaining an understanding of the basis of our oppression; you are privileged if you believe you can escape it."
4w.pub/non-binary-is-the-new-not-like-other-girls-and-its-deeply-rooted-in-misogyny/

There are very serious implications for the whole of society in colluding with the notion that people can be neither/both female and male. Many younger people will not have thought through all of the possible consequences. This recent article by Dr Nicola Williams (Fairplay For Women) in response to the recent Supreme Court appeal for a sexless passport is worth reading:

'Non-binary is no joke
Becoming “sex-less” allows people to opt out of sex-based rules'
thecritic.co.uk/non-binary-is-no-joke/