Non binary daughter

[lovelilies]

My 15 year old has revealed she's non binary.
She's always been a 'tomboy', short hair, boys clothes etc, which I've always supported without much (I think) judgement.
I thought I was helping raise a feminist, she knows a lot about women's issues, we have a very close and open and liberal relationship.

She was diagnosedASD at 11, I know there seem to be more NB/ trans etc people with ASD. I myself have ADHD diagnosed as an adult. I'm female, straight, none feminine. I don't wear make up much (once a month if that), colourful but not 'ladylike' clothes, definitely not groomed don't know if that's relevant just trying to set the scene!

I'm struggling with the pronoun thing. They've changed their name to a unisex name (fine, it's their name, I can do that) but the whole them/they thing really doesn't sit right!
She's a girl to me, my daughter. She doesn't have to be 'girly' but I don't get why she can't just be herself WHILE being a girl?
I will chat more with her, I just want the dust to settle a bit so I don't upset her. She's sent me a link tonight for a chest binder (she's very large of bust - 28 FF) I don't know whether to buy her one? She says she's saving up for it.

She does have a boyfriend, he's supportive of these changes which I'm surprised about but also glad. He is cis male and 'straight'. They've been together a year and are sexually active. I asked if she wants to be a bit but she said no, thankfully.

Just after some opinions, advice, anything? I'm secretly hoping it'll run it's course and she will be comfortable being herself.

Thanks for listening!

Please stop referring to them as 'she'.
I thought I was helping raise a feminist You don't have to use female pronouns to be a feminist.

Your topic is fine for feminist boards, I was more meaning that as soon as you mention a support of trans or use the word gender there is usually a wave of posts with biased links telling you how wrong you are.

You seem to have been getting some good advice mainly, so I hope everything works out in a positive way for your child.

Thank you.

I shall focus my efforts on finding a good bra for them now.

(My problem with they/them is entirely MY problem, I do realise that, to me it's a plural, I imagine 2 of them standing in front of me- and I do realise this may well be my neuro divergent brain struggling with this concept. I reckon a different word entirely would be easier to get my head around).

It is difficult, especially more so that you have had 15 years of referring to them as she, her, daughter. Of course it’s going to be difficult changing. Couple that with ‘they’ ‘them’ is usually plural!

I agree that them/they is very confusing. Entirely new words would be far easier to use. Good luck, I’m finding 15 ia slightly challenging but also lovely age- much better than the early teens. I think my DD quite likes me again.🤣

@jennie0412

Please stop referring to them as 'she'. I thought I was helping raise a feminist You don't have to use female pronouns to be a feminist.

She isn't referring to them, she's referring to one daughter. You seem confused.

Right m, I've blown £75 on a couple of bras from Figleaves so please collectively cross your fingers that they fit 🙏🏼
'Ash' (not real name but easier than they/them!) will appreciate that I've used the new name on the order I hope

Bunnie you're telling a mother talking about her daughter off for using 'she' - in an environment where the mother needs support and the daughter definitely won't see the conversation?!

Un-fucking-believable

People will refer to the OP's daughter as "she" because:

1. It's obvious to their eyes that the person in front of them is female.
2. They're already acquainted with her and know that she's female.
3. They will have no truck with calling individuals "they" when they're aware of the person's sex.

Either way it's going to happen and the OP's daughter might as well get used to it now rather than later.

I'm not convinced that there's any benefit in calling the person who you birthed by a descriptor which is, at best, inaccurate, livelillies, but that's your call. Buying your daughter a binder is your call too, but if you do you'll be damaging her physical health and quite possibly her mental health too. It's not "mean" to take a stand against or express opposite views towards your daughter's behaviour. It's responsible parenting.

So many thoughts!

In no particular order.

It's easier to refer by name than try to get used to they.
EG child says I want to be called X. So think of it like a nickname. Then just say X says this or that. Much easier to get the hang of.

DD wants to bind breasts but also wants a pretty bra? Not entirely consistent and not surprising. Breasts are so sexualised in our society and are a massive cause of conflicting feelings/ dislike when you're young. This is not new.

Even if DD has not been wolf whistled, with boobs that large, even if she wears baggy clothes, there is no way she's not experienced more subtle stuff that makes girls uncomfortable.

Telling her she has a figure other girls will envy is incredibly unhelpful. Why did you even do that? It's a dismissive reaction that helps nothing.

She's angry that men are physically stronger. yes that is something that is a real fucker for women and girls everywhere. Adopting a different gender ID won't help that. It's sort of saying. Girls are weak and I don't feel comfortable about that so. I'm not one of those weak people. That's not a healthy reaction as it changes nothing.

She sounds confused. Wants pretty bras but hates her breasts? A lot to unpick there.

The names pronouns stuff is easy. The discomfort with her sex and body is quite normal for girls. But it needs gently working through as she sounds very conflicted.

Girls have struggled with this forever so it's doable!

Good luck. And stop with the enviable body/ I'd love big tits stuff. That's not a good way to go at all.

I've fucked up on pronouns so suspect this will be deleted. Op says she so if that's the case whole thread should go. One for MNHQ as no doubt this will be reported.

If she wants to be a mother, she will need to stop binding her chest, she need to give herself an option to breastfeed. She may not want to now but she may not give her an opportunity to change her mind

But that's up to your child. Just something your child need to consider

Hi OP, I'm sorry, I will go back an RTFT, but I hate this whole non-binary bollox. We're all non-binary aren't we? I'm a woman who's very feminine in some ways, but I often have short or shaved hair, I wear a tux, but also a dress sometimes. I can be mostly found in a shirt and blazer. And that's just looks.

When it comes to pursuits, careers or interests, I hate the idea that traditional female interests are seen as lesser. That's misogyny by any measure we might like to use.

I work in a very male-dominated industry. I have very many interests that are considered to be 'male', I also have interests that are considered very 'female'. For 'some bizarre reason' upon meeting people, they're amazed at what I do for a job, but aren't as amazed when I present them with a superb meal.

I've also been told (by a straight woman), 'You're the sexiest lesbian I've ever met'. I'm not a lesbian!

So I understand that society in general is a bit confused about biological sex, sexuality, and gender.

What I'm trying to say, in a rather roundabout way, is, that whatever anyone thinks about me. I know I'm a woman. I may not be a typical woman as society expects, but I don't think many are. I know loads of atypical women. If they were navigating the world now they may identify as non-binary, but it's important for young women like your daughter to know that there are millions of women out there who don't fit into an easily 'gendered' slot but are still very much women.

Yes of course we're all 'non binary'.

To suggest otherwise would mean that most people are 2D stereotypes with no internal life. And with women having even less substance than men.

@MidClegs

Bunnie you're telling a mother talking about her daughter off for using 'she' - in an environment where the mother needs support and the daughter definitely won't see the conversation?!

Un-fucking-believable

@MidClegs have you confused my post with someone else’s?

I’ve not told off the OP for using wrong pronouns. I’ve sympathised that I understand how difficult it is and suggested acknowledging to their child that she will likely make mistakes but it’s not from a place of malice.

This is why I try and steer clear of the feminist boards.

By the way I haven't said to her about the enviable body... I said it about the curly hair, and only comments I've made about her body have been factual and attempts of being supportive

Also, there was a thread a while ago that asked women 'if you could be born as a man, would you?'

And a horrifying number of women said yes.

I sort of understand why, and I understand why young women would want to shun womanhood.

But it's not the answer is it? We can't really deny our biology. It just is.

So much better to shun the world rather than ourselves.

It's the world that's wrong. I'm right.

Oh sorry op.

A lot of women and girls really don't enjoy having an 'enviable body' as it gets them so much unwanted attention from way too young.

Glad you didn't say that.

You sound a bit like me, Shrike, I have a shaved undercut, wear flat shoes, 'Ash' even says I look like a lesbian! I tell her I'm just me and happen to be female, but I certainly don't conform to societal norms.
I do try and embrace my 'femaleness' more, now, as my hope was to empower my daughters and encourage my son to see strong female role models.

To the person who said for Ash to stop binding- they haven't started yet, it was literally a link sent to me tonight.

I must find out more about what's driving this.
Ash has always (until just recently) rejected femininity, but embraced feminism.
They know and understand about the struggles (and victories!) fought by women over the centuries.
Their name was 'Lily' hence my username, but they never really felt it suited them although it's a 'nice' name in itself.

I do actually wonder if they think that redefining themselves as NB will actually change anything? What is it exactly that they want to change? , if the name change is enough then that would make life easier!

You need to ask 'Ash', 'What a lesbian looks like?'

There is no 'lesbian' look. My friends who are lesbians all look very different from eachother. As do my gay male friends.

So what does 'Ash' see as the binary that she feels different from?

It's fine and absolutely teen normal to feel different from one's peers.

But there is essentially no 'one' that your 'other' can be so different from.

That's a very good question Love. What does 'Ash' think NB will achieve?

Are Ash's questions really about who Ash is or about the world Ash lives in?

Probably the latter. It's not a bad question. But the answer is very teenage. Which is why it should be treated as such. With considered respect, and an understanding of why the question was asked.

The answer shouldn't be acceptance without reflection.

@jennie0412

Please stop referring to them as 'she'. I thought I was helping raise a feminist You don't have to use female pronouns to be a feminist.

What part of anonymous messaging board do you find hard to understand? Using the singular they pronoun in this context is confusing and the daughter is not going to see this so I reckon the mum is fine to use whatever pronouns she likes, yeah?

I think it's absolutely ok for a mother to refer to her daughter as 'she'.

I had huge boobs as a teenage and hated it! So so much. I had my breast reduction earlier this year and my biggest regret is that I didn't do it earlier. If my DDs have the same problems as I did, I will be paying privately at 18 for them to have the same. You can still breast feed in some cases but the sheer delight of pert little boobs is unbeatable. I had so much attention from men/boys outside of school but luckily I was at a girls school so wasn't too bad.