Non binary daughter

[lovelilies]

My 15 year old has revealed she's non binary.
She's always been a 'tomboy', short hair, boys clothes etc, which I've always supported without much (I think) judgement.
I thought I was helping raise a feminist, she knows a lot about women's issues, we have a very close and open and liberal relationship.

She was diagnosedASD at 11, I know there seem to be more NB/ trans etc people with ASD. I myself have ADHD diagnosed as an adult. I'm female, straight, none feminine. I don't wear make up much (once a month if that), colourful but not 'ladylike' clothes, definitely not groomed don't know if that's relevant just trying to set the scene!

I'm struggling with the pronoun thing. They've changed their name to a unisex name (fine, it's their name, I can do that) but the whole them/they thing really doesn't sit right!
She's a girl to me, my daughter. She doesn't have to be 'girly' but I don't get why she can't just be herself WHILE being a girl?
I will chat more with her, I just want the dust to settle a bit so I don't upset her. She's sent me a link tonight for a chest binder (she's very large of bust - 28 FF) I don't know whether to buy her one? She says she's saving up for it.

She does have a boyfriend, he's supportive of these changes which I'm surprised about but also glad. He is cis male and 'straight'. They've been together a year and are sexually active. I asked if she wants to be a bit but she said no, thankfully.

Just after some opinions, advice, anything? I'm secretly hoping it'll run it's course and she will be comfortable being herself.

Thanks for listening!

Since it is not recommended that sports bras are worn extensively due to potential damage, a little more thought is required

Who is teaching all these non-binary kids that non-binary people shouldn't have breasts?
It seems quite body-shaming to me and definitely exclusionary.
We should be inclusive of all body types rather than trying to change healthy bodies.
I don't claim to understand why a non-binary person would want a 'male' chest as a default (as a PP described it). Male is one of the binary genders. This person is actively changing to a binary body shape.

I can absolutely understand anyone, regardless of gender identity, wanting to minimise breasts if they are causing discomfort. I do worry about binders though and this pressure to change to a 'male chest' as a PP described.

Take her to Bravissimo for a bra. She will find whatever she likes. Compression sports bra or pretty with daisies.

Get her some gender exploration books. Trumpet, by Jackie Kay or Middlesex by Jeffrey Eugenides. There are probably more recently published books around too.

Fortunately, being non-traditonal gender wise us far more acceptable these days. She's not as likely to be bullied or teased.

Re Binding:

As there are different types of gay man "Bear", "Twink", "Otter", "Top", "Bottom" etc there are different types of gay woman "Stud", "Femme", "Packing", "Butch", "Dyke".

I know that some Studs bind themselves and will often walk around with a strap. So although there may be some health implications to binding of which you may want to gently raise with your child it's also a part of some gay womens lifestyle and should be handled sensitively.

Have you looked at what PHSE resources they are using at her school?

I believe musician Young MA binds for example.

My apologies, just seen Bravissimo wasn't good. There is a Polish brand that big boobed women ( my daughter, neices) appear to love called Ewa Michalac. I think they're expensive tho.

That's adult women though vegi rather than children I assume.

I was sexually active at 15, in fact more sexually active than I am now. You have to be sheltered or naive to not think that teenagers are dabbling in adult behaviour.

My [non-binary] dd wears a binder, she doesn't have large boobs, but for her, it is not about getting a good bra etc, it is about having a flat male chest.

Why is a male chest 'non-binary'? It's not non-binary, it's male. A flat chest is no more non-binary than large breasts are.

It’s odd how enbys who are biologically male get to have fun with make up, nail polish and long hair.

While biologically females enbys have to do painful and damaging things like wear binders and have major surgery.

You’d think that something that’s supposedly about rejecting stereotypes would be less....... stereotypical.

What does binding your breasts have to do with being sexually active?

Thanks for calling me naive and sheltered though.

In general people's look develops as they get older. And their sexual behaviour does as well, if you want to bring it into this thread about ops daughter. People don't tend to go 0-100 do they.

Interesting conclusions to jump to about a stranger though.

Oh come on. How on earth did that break the guidelines?!

Pear because male is default
Because breasts are so sexualised
Because the whole thing is based in male or to perspective

It's men who are frankly obsessed with women breasts. Lads mags, loads of drag queens, an apparent focus for plenty of trans women. All the reams of stuff about new pert tits bouncing down the stairs and what not.

So of course a flat chest is neutral. A female chest has way too much baggage around it to be neutral.

Whole thing is shit.

@vegiburger

I was sexually active at 15, in fact more sexually active than I am now. You have to be sheltered or naive to not think that teenagers are dabbling in adult behaviour.

Neither actually. It was more the throwaway nature of the remark and later comments praising the "cis" boyfriend.

My daughter (also with large boobs - 30GG) just mentioned wanting a binder yesterday. Her bust is a source of great embarrassment to her and she would get a reduction in a heartbeat. I've told her about the consequences of binding and the health problems they can cause.

I do feel for her - even when we got to a good bra shop - we use Bravissimo - nothing seems to be exactly right and they just sit there on her chest stopping her wearing the clothes she wants and performing no useful function!

@lovelilies

She hasn't asked to transition. She hasn't asked for Testosterone or indicated that she would want it.

I do need to let her talk to me more about this but I also don't want her to obsess about it!
I also have a 6 yo son and 4 yo daughter who do take up a lot of my attention, but we do manage to spend some 1:1 time together.

This whole epidemic of gender dysphoria and sexuality questioning (some of her friends are gay/bi/trans) is quite foreign to me- I understand that it's common now, and do see a lot of it on social media (I've joined groups at her suggestion so I am reasonably well informed),

I do still find it strange that people can devote what seems like their every waking moment on examining and sharing and debating their sex/gender/identity etc rather than just getting on with their lives! Obviously I won't say as much to her, it sounds mean and unsupportive, I do find it all terribly self indulgent though if I'm honest.

Your last paragraph hits the nail on the head. Lots of ASD detransitioners have said how trans/non-binary stuff was like their special topic or interest and they obsessively read about it. She is probably non-stop googling and discussing it online which compounds it all. Look at transgender trend for lots of good advice and info. It sounds like you are switched on and know exactly what is happening- albeit powerless to fully intervene.

We all had teenage identity wobbles. As you say, you are probably similar to her in your thinking about gender but appreciate you can still be a woman without dresses, make up etc. In your day, bi wasn't a think so you just found your way and are comfortable. Now, youth are so exposed and I think it can really aggravate teens with ASDs.
Not just linked to gender. It reminds me of a case of an ASD teenager being radicalised in the papers recently. He claimed to show no real signs of actually believing it all, just got so obsessed in his special interest of politics he could not stop himself crossing the line.

You can stand on your high horse and spout all your feminist theory, believe me I know and I have been there.
Or, you can think about what your child needs, and what they need is you. Beside them. Walking through the choices with them, not refusing to engage in any of the choices.

The advice you are giving is dangerous.

Denial might work for you, but other mothers find facing the issues directly and not risky the safety of their child is priority (and believe me, there are lots of us here who have trans/nb identified children and teens, mostly female ones).

Just take a look at a few ‘before’ surgical transition pictures, the damage a binder does to breast tissue is obvious. Perhaps not a big deal if the person plans to have a cosmetic double mastectomy, but I wouldn’t knowingly put my own teenage daughter on the path towards that outcome, personally.

@DeaconBoo

Who is teaching all these non-binary kids that non-binary people shouldn't have breasts? It seems quite body-shaming to me and definitely exclusionary. We should be inclusive of all body types rather than trying to change healthy bodies. I don't claim to understand why a non-binary person would want a 'male' chest as a default (as a PP described it). Male is one of the binary genders. This person is actively changing to a binary body shape.

I can absolutely understand anyone, regardless of gender identity, wanting to minimise breasts if they are causing discomfort. I do worry about binders though and this pressure to change to a 'male chest' as a PP described.

This is something I've wondered for ages.

Why is it that "default human body" for non-binary women appears to be "male human body"? Could it be our old friend sexism yet again?

I honestly don't think I've ever seen a single part of this whole crazy ideology that isn't rooted in misogyny and good old fashioned sexism. (The "good" is ironic, lest anyone hard of thinking be following this thread.)

During a respiratory pandemic noone should be wearing a binder. I would not get her one to try. The link below talks about binding if you scroll down.

Would you bind her feet to make them small?
www.transgendertrend.com/social-transition-and-chest-binding/
Autistics can see things in a very black and white way. Men are strong, women are weak. I don't want to be weak, but I don't want to be a man so I must be nothing. Non binary is saying not male or female, that is not biologically possible! See this link fairplayforwomen.com/chromosomes-biological-sex-gender/
Look for some 'strong' female role models. Women may on the whole be physically weaker than men but there will be amazing stories of 'strength'.
Also ask her how she feels about compelled speech. It will give you cognitive dissonance and will mess with your head making you feel incompetent. It is very controlling which can be another autistic trait. Are you in any autism parent groups that have parents who want an alternative to affirmation? Get ideas from both sides of the arguement but do your own research. For example binders are promoted without the side effects being throughly discussed.
I would also check if all her autistic needs are being met, sensory, social, down time, recovery time etc. Good luck.

Well I just got a deletion and strike for saying that Cara, so he careful.

Seems were not allowed to talk about how non-binary transition is surgical removal of organs for females and clothes and cosmetics for males.

I think pear you are generalising. There are many transwomen who do go surgical or hormonal routes.

I do agree it seems easier for a man to transition without surgery and hormonal treatment.

@midgebabe

I think pear you are generalising. There are many transwomen who do go surgical or hormonal routes.

I do agree it seems easier for a man to transition without surgery and hormonal treatment.

But I don't think the male non-binaries do any of that, do they?

Male non-binary people seem to just play with crossdressing or a bit of make up, but female non-binary people seem to need to bind their breasts or have mastectomies and sometimes take testosterone.

I'm not, and was never, talking about transwomen.

I'm talking about non-binary people.