Non binary daughter

[lovelilies]

My 15 year old has revealed she's non binary.
She's always been a 'tomboy', short hair, boys clothes etc, which I've always supported without much (I think) judgement.
I thought I was helping raise a feminist, she knows a lot about women's issues, we have a very close and open and liberal relationship.

She was diagnosedASD at 11, I know there seem to be more NB/ trans etc people with ASD. I myself have ADHD diagnosed as an adult. I'm female, straight, none feminine. I don't wear make up much (once a month if that), colourful but not 'ladylike' clothes, definitely not groomed don't know if that's relevant just trying to set the scene!

I'm struggling with the pronoun thing. They've changed their name to a unisex name (fine, it's their name, I can do that) but the whole them/they thing really doesn't sit right!
She's a girl to me, my daughter. She doesn't have to be 'girly' but I don't get why she can't just be herself WHILE being a girl?
I will chat more with her, I just want the dust to settle a bit so I don't upset her. She's sent me a link tonight for a chest binder (she's very large of bust - 28 FF) I don't know whether to buy her one? She says she's saving up for it.

She does have a boyfriend, he's supportive of these changes which I'm surprised about but also glad. He is cis male and 'straight'. They've been together a year and are sexually active. I asked if she wants to be a bit but she said no, thankfully.

Just after some opinions, advice, anything? I'm secretly hoping it'll run it's course and she will be comfortable being herself.

Thanks for listening!

I also had large boobs as a teen (and beyond) and later had a reduction due to chronic back problems that every professional said were due to the size of my chest. After the reduction I too was full of regret that I'd not done it sooner.

What people don't seem to realise about large breasts is how much indirect attention they attract. And it's actually difficult to imagine unless you've had a reduction and see the difference from one day to the next for yourself (well, it took two weeks before I was really out and about to notice it).

DD may not have had any overt experience with comments about DDs boobs but it's impossible to imagine there's been no change in the way boys for example, look or a snide comment from at least one girl. Girls, in a different way, can be just as good at making you feel uncomfortable with your "assets" (they're not!) as boys.

When I was DDs age I'd have done anything to have a binder too. Instead I had minimiser bras because they were the only option. I have no ASD or ADHD either. I was just so uncomfortable at how I was perceived and had absolutely no control about it (I didn't choose to have large breasts and I couldn't hide them that much). I felt humiliated just going outside sometimes because i couldn't control how I was perceived. It was truly horrible.

I got used to it in the end but never really got used to the reactions I'd get from other women or obviously men. And wearing tops that ensured no cleavage was both good and hard - because they often make boobs look bigger.

It's 10 years since I had the reduction and I'm still happy about it. And I too would pay for my own daughter to have a reduction for her 18th birthday - if she wanted it (I wouldn't suggest it though, I'd leave it to her).

@jennie0412

Please stop referring to them as 'she'. I thought I was helping raise a feminist You don't have to use female pronouns to be a feminist.

She's a girl, she will always be a girl, it's extremely controlling and coercive to try to dictate what pronouns people use about someone not in their presence. Please stop doing this.

My boobs are an issue and I’d love a reduction. I know how she feels. But I would never bind them.

You say she doesn’t want to be a boy so I don’t understand why the need for the binder other than smaller boobs.

Get her some good minimiser bras, not the prettiest things but they’ll make do and then she can look into a reduction when she’s old enough.

I honestly can’t comment on the non-binary stuff because I don’t really believe in it. Each to their own but I think it’s all a bit of a trend at the moment. Too much tik tok 🤦🏼‍♀️

I hate it when posters police a mother 'on behalf of' a child they don't know and don't have in front of them. When a mother is seeking support from other women, and the child is not remotely involved with the conversation, allow the mother to speak in a natural and un-coerced way!!!

OP, binders are unhealthy. Good ($$) supportive bras, in nude colours, with a cami or high necked t-shirt to cover cleavage are best. You will need to get her properly fitted at a shop catering for larger sizes.

I would otherwise remain low key about the whole endeavour. Encourage hobbies, physical activity, a range of friendships. Seek mental health support if required for other issues - anxiety etc.

Use the new name if you want to. Otherwise you can call her pet names instead of her 'girly name'. Use gender neutral language when it seems appropriate eg you could introduce her as your eldest child, rather than your daughter. Or call her 'your sibling' to other kids rather than 'your sister'. Don't stress about 'they'.

That's all you need to do. This is just your child experimenting, as is developmentally normal, with identity - in the way it currently presents in society. Keep an eye out for indications of any risky or health-threatening behaviours, but mainly just have a relationship with her that doesn't hyperfocus on gender, hers or anyone elses.

Breast-binding is a form of self-harm. And it causes serious adverse health conditions. Please, try to dissuade her from using one in any way you can.

You mention you don’t have any good bra retailers nearby, you can still do a good measure and order online. This is a site recommended by lots of MNers to get an accurate size. (Then, styles sometimes come up big or small which is annoying, but hopefully this gets you more in the ballpark.)

booborbust.com/

@lovelilies

Yes they are a pain.

We've tried many different bra shops/ online but all have not fitted properly or been uncomfortable. At the moment she wears a sports bra from M&S.

When running she doubles up with a crop top type sports bra in a small size. But obviously that makes breathing hard!

She has said she'd love a pretty bra like the ones in the shops with daisies on etc

There's no way she'd be granted a reduction on the NHS at her age I wouldn't have thought, plus she feels strongly about BF in the future

I'm sorry I don't have any experience or advice regarding non binary teens, but i do regarding big boobs! Try Bravissimo as they have a wide range of styles including sports, non wired, pretty, minimising etc. They're not cheap but they are definitely worth the investment IMO. Good luck, you sound like a lovely mum

Sorry I've just read you tried Bravissimo and not had a good experience.

I had huge boobs as well and as soon as I got to that point in your op I thought bingo. For years every bra fit resulted in me balling crying. My poor father was even in on the action trying to figure out something standing outside shops saying to my mum buy whatever don't think of the cost. shopping for tops also a disaster. And bikinis. And then I found my shop and I found my brand. My MIL discovered I spent €80 on a bikini and thought I was mad - her daughter spent maybe €40 on 6 news ones each year in primary. And then she saw me in it and was like give me the name of that till I ring my friends because my boobs looked normal instead of falling out the sides. Freya works for me and I'll buy their bikinis online in sale or whenever fig leaves have money off. I still won't buy a bra without going to the shop I trust and the specific person I trust. It's such a huge thing. A proper bra completely changed my appearance and posture. And comfort. But you can't underestimate how difficult it is to be a teenager with obscene boobs- that's what I thought about my own body, that they were obscene. No la senza or Victoria secret or Ann summers for me when all my friends did. No colours only fecking nude. But once I found the right one they seemed smaller and then an aunt went shopping with me and I ended up with a slightly backless top and a strapless top. It all sounds so superficial but it was life changing.

Once you figure out your size you can buy Freya on eBay too. As long as you’re not after the latest season’s stuff, you can pick up a bra for about £15 (brand new with tags, not 2nd hand 🤒). I only wear Freya deco bras now and find nothing compares to them.

I would use her new name though, OP. It’s not really up to you if someone says they have changed their name. It’s their name, not yours. With pronouns, this is not a huge issue as you don’t tend to use gendered pronouns when the person in question is part of the conversation. I’d help her with the bras, use the new name, avoid gendered pronouns in her presence and I reckon she will feel better and more secure in a few years.

It’s a shame that girls these days think ‘girls are weak, therefore I’m not a girl’ rather than ‘bullshit- girls aren’t weak at all’. Things seem to have regressed since I was at school in the early 00s. We didn’t grow up feeling like second class citizens to boys like girls seem to these days. We were told we were equal and I think we believed it (until we started work, learned a bit more about the world and realised that maybe it wasn’t quite true). It did mean that we nearly all rejected feminism as something unnecessary and irrelevant to us but I think that’s the same as what’s happening today where young girls call themselves feminists yet centre men and demonise older women. My generation did the same 15 years ago but we didn’t call ourselves feminists in doing so, so there was less confusion.

OP I have read through this thread and my concern is that while that bayswater article was fine, it did not do enough to explore the ‘why’.

That is tricky in that there might not be a why that makes sense as it really may be just something she is trying out.

In my daughter’s friends 4 out of 6 girls are either NB or trans. As a society this is an issue because experimenting with gender isn’t so much the problem. it is the binding and from what I have seen, the poor mental health when they come out become very poor mental health within months in each case of my daughter’s friends.

Apart from gentle probing, you are obviously looking for reasons for this decision. I wish you luck. Does she suffer poor mental health otherwise? If you find you need a mental health expert, please do some research to find one who is neutral about gender identity (one that is respectful but will look deeper and treat all the contributing factors to poor mental health rather than taking a purely affirmation treatment plan).

And to the poster’s remonstrating lovelillies for not getting the pronouns. I will repeat what others have said, this is a mum posting for support. You clearly have you own thoughts, but shaming a mother for a pronoun crime while she is seeking help is not acceptable.

I was a tomboy from age 9 to 12. My mother was completely supportive, letting me officially add a boy's name (well, a girl's name that could be shortened to a boy's), cut my hair and wear boy's clothes at home. This was in the years 1950-1962, mind, so not at all a trendy matter. My model was George of the Famous Five.

I always knew I was a girl, though I didn't like "girly" things. And I didn't mind wearing skirts at school -- I was not an openly rebellious child.
But I was a late developer. All my schoolmates began developing breasts and figures -- not me.

I think that was the moment I "decided" to openly be a girl again. You see, there were two kinds of uniform: a straight up-and-down tunic with a girdle for the younger girls, and skirts, white shirts and ties for the older girls.

I was the last girl in my year to develop "enough shape" to earn a skirt and shirt! With a September birthday, I was the youngest in my form and I was still completely flat-chested and hipless at 12. They wouldn't allow me to change uniform (this was a strict Independent girls' school in Yorkshire). So there was I, with a child's figure, still wearing a tunic as the only girl in the form not to wear a skirt!

I think that was the moment I woke up. I couldn't wait to wear a skirt like all the others.

Funny, but I only just made the connection, while reading this thread. I could never remember THE instigating moment I gave up my tomboy identity, but that was definitely one of the triggers.

As I grew older and had kids and bf'd, my breasts grew and grew and now I wear a G cup, and I hate it! I would love to go down to a D, or better yet, C.

Good luck with your dd, OP. My feeling is she will grow out of it.
And bollocks about women being weaker than men. We pay far too much attention to physical strength. Strength of character, mental strength, is far more important. I would not for one minute change to being a man. We are so much more complex, and the strength granted me by being a mother and a grandmother -- well, it trumps everything. I LOVE womanhood, and just wish it were more appreciated and respected.

@Malahaha

I was a tomboy from age 9 to 12. My mother was completely supportive, letting me officially add a boy's name (well, a girl's name that could be shortened to a boy's), cut my hair and wear boy's clothes at home. This was in the years 1950-1962, mind, so not at all a trendy matter. My model was George of the Famous Five.

I always knew I was a girl, though I didn't like "girly" things. And I didn't mind wearing skirts at school -- I was not an openly rebellious child.
But I was a late developer. All my schoolmates began developing breasts and figures -- not me.

I think that was the moment I "decided" to openly be a girl again. You see, there were two kinds of uniform: a straight up-and-down tunic with a girdle for the younger girls, and skirts, white shirts and ties for the older girls.

I was the last girl in my year to develop "enough shape" to earn a skirt and shirt! With a September birthday, I was the youngest in my form and I was still completely flat-chested and hipless at 12. They wouldn't allow me to change uniform (this was a strict Independent girls' school in Yorkshire). So there was I, with a child's figure, still wearing a tunic as the only girl in the form not to wear a skirt!

I think that was the moment I woke up. I couldn't wait to wear a skirt like all the others.

Funny, but I only just made the connection, while reading this thread. I could never remember THE instigating moment I gave up my tomboy identity, but that was definitely one of the triggers.

As I grew older and had kids and bf'd, my breasts grew and grew and now I wear a G cup, and I hate it! I would love to go down to a D, or better yet, C.

Good luck with your dd, OP. My feeling is she will grow out of it.
And bollocks about women being weaker than men. We pay far too much attention to physical strength. Strength of character, mental strength, is far more important. I would not for one minute change to being a man. We are so much more complex, and the strength granted me by being a mother and a grandmother -- well, it trumps everything. I LOVE womanhood, and just wish it were more appreciated and respected.

Off topic but your school sounds highly fucked up. How dare they assess girls’ bodies to see whether they warrant ‘moving up’ to the new uniform. I’ve never heard anything like it and I hope they’ve either shut down or radically changed their behaviour.

It sounds like 'Ash' is struggling with managing her breasts during sport - in previous posts, both karate and running have been mentioned. And that she's frustrated that women are, on average, smaller and weaker than men.

Is the desire for a binder part of that? Their thinking could be "my breasts get in the way and make it hard to do sports. A binder will make my breasts go away, so I won't have that problem any more."

If that's the case, it's worth talking about how the binder will work, or even getting one and letting them try it out.

The binder doesn't get rid of breasts, it just squeezes the whole chest/lung area really tightly to make them look smaller. It's about aesthetics, not about real change. And that comes at a huge cost to physical performance: there are reports of NB girls fainting because they can't breathe properly when wearing a binder.

If Ash is used to doing physical activity, they will quickly learn the difference between looking more masculine and actually being male: the binder won't improve their performance by giving them the appearance of a masculine chest; it will actually make it worse.

It’s a shame that girls these days think ‘girls are weak, therefore I’m not a girl’ rather than ‘bullshit- girls aren’t weak at all’. Things seem to have regressed since I was at school in the early 00s. We didn’t grow up feeling like second class citizens to boys like girls seem to these days. We were told we were equal and I think we believed it (until we started work, learned a bit more about the world and realised that maybe it wasn’t quite true). It did mean that we nearly all rejected feminism as something unnecessary and irrelevant to us but I think that’s the same as what’s happening today where young girls call themselves feminists yet centre men and demonise older women. My generation did the same 15 years ago but we didn’t call ourselves feminists in doing so, so there was less confusion.

Yes, exactly! Both of the secondary schools I attended were girls only and I never for one moment thought that we were weaker. Both schools had strong science departments. I was never good at maths, but my best friend was a maths whizz and she did a subject called "ad-maths" for O-Levels -- I think the "ad" part stands for "additional" rather than "advanced". And I know I admired her for that and knew that being bad at maths, as I was, just wasn't a girl-thing. And I had other talents, anyway, and those talents were equally fostered.

I truly believed the feminist struggle was over because my mother was an early feminist and I didn't see what the problem was.

I despised men for their obsession with sex and "getting some". It seemed so primitive to me, and their constant grovelling to get into girls' knickers seemed primitive, not at all something to admire. And so I never tried or wanted to be sexy for men, and never thought them superior. What was the point, when I knew that (most) men were willing to screw any girl, no matter how she looked?

So, never make-up, sexy clothes, or high-heels. I still got loads of unwanted attention and could have had sex many times a day for years if I'd wanted to. But I didn't. And I wasn't even beautiful, according to current standards.

It's devastating to see so many women caving to the trans-dogma and to the normalisation of porn and violent sex. These are male fantasies; what made women cave?

bunnies

If you have not read widely on this board, perhaps you had better before telling lovelillies that this is not the place to post. Rather, many of the regulars on this board also have plenty of experience to share.

If you have read this board rather than taking the universal view that this board is phobic, you will know that we have huge concerns about the current ‘affirm only’ treatment being advocated by people who should be experts. Affirmation only really only is effective in treating some children with gender disphoria (if lillies daughter even has GD). It can be a disaster for those who need other avenues of treatment, such as identifying root causes of GD and including those in the treatment plan.

We are also very concerned with how these teens are being safeguarded. We are also very concerned with maintaining the opportunities that they as females (however they identify) have through education, sport and employment. Even down to the freedom to use language that is not dehumanising them.

Have not read the thread, but as a grown up who from teenager years has had boob issues , can I suggest molke? Very comfortable, and the design copes with different size boobs and the monthly changes in size. patterns I have are dinasaurs and space but they might have more traditionally pretty designs also

Can I also suggest climbing as a sport as I find that the differences between male and female bodies are respected and the men will often be looking for advice on technique, balance and flexibility from the women, who tend to develop those skills quickly as they are shorter with less upper body strength. So women and men are acknowledged as different without one being superior to the other

Off topic but your school sounds highly fucked up. How dare they assess girls’ bodies to see whether they warrant ‘moving up’ to the new uniform. I’ve never heard anything like it and I hope they’ve either shut down or radically changed their behaviour.

For one, this was in the 50's, early 60's.

It was a simple uniform rule,as many school still have. A skirt needed hips to hold it up, otherwise it would not fit properly. They were also expensive so it made no sense buying clothes for a child, when that child would probably make a growth spurt a year later.

You sound very young, with your "how dare they!". See, in those days we dealt with rules we didn't like or were embarrassing etc. We learnt to just get on with it. I found their "eat what's on your plate" rule much, much worse, as I was a fussy eater -- but you know what, dealing with that rule also helped mature me, and gave me a lot of stories to laugh about later in life! How I got around eating liver and mushy peas!
I think we were far more stoic, back in the day. Nobody would have a strop because of uniform rules.

It was the best school I ever went to, actually. Utterly fantastic. Yes, even the strictness, which I needed.

OP I think you need to read up on breast binders as you’ve said you don’t really know about them and yes, find a good bra.

I do actually wonder if they think that redefining themselves as NB will actually change anything? What is it exactly that they want to change? this is also something you need to have a good talk with ‘Ash’ about and find out why these things can’t be done as a girl.
As for the pronouns well I’m sure there’s a game where people have to say no instead of yes and vice versa and they mostly fail, even when it’s for money, it just doesn’t come naturally out of your mouth (or even when writing), heck my MIL has to go through all her children’s and grandchildren’s names before she gets my daughter’s name, she’d never be able to cope with a change of pronoun!

And bollocks about women being weaker than men. We pay far too much attention to physical strength. Strength of character, mental strength, is far more important. I would not for one minute change to being a man. We are so much more complex, and the strength granted me by being a mother and a grandmother -- well, it trumps everything. I LOVE womanhood, and just wish it were more appreciated and respected.

I too struggle with 'they' as it's, to me, plural. I wish another term had been chosen instead which doesn't jar with normal grammar.

In terms of the non-binary, I wonder if it would help to discuss with her what 'binary' means? When you deconstruct it I think it ends up meaning not much at all as who is 'binary'? She is cross that women are physically weaker but actually as a species we are physically very weak and have survived by relying on our intelligence. Is it worth exploring those sort of ideas with her? I'd probably carry on calling her 'they' as it's important to respect her wishes though in reality that so jars with normal speech I'd probably call her 'DD' most of the time as that makes thinking easier.

Perhaps it's worth thinking things through a bit more for you too to make sure you're giving the most helpful message to her. E.g. what does it mean to 'embrace your femaleness more'? What is femaleness in this context? How are you defining female and male and are you inadvertently creating some rigid boxes which she then feels she has to either put herself in or be non-binary? What you said about wearing metallica t-shirts and having an undercut suggests that you, on some level, think being female is about being 'feminine'. It's not though really is it? There is nothing about either of these sorts of things which is relevant at all to being 'female'.

OP just thinking, for sports, I wouldn’t use any other brand than shock absorber. They are expensive but ime they actually work and are worth it.

Supporting and encouraging physical activities and sports is a great idea I think. I am sure I read somewhere that girls identifying as boys or NB are prone to giving up on physical activities especially once they begin to use a binder as binders make breathing difficult much like the corsets of the past. Binders really weaken girls rather than make them stronger because of that. I wonder if once that realisation sets in mastectomy becomes more and more of an attractive option and sacrificing the ability to breastfeed in future could seem worth it to the teenager at that point.

Once the physical activities drop there can then be the tendency to spend more time online which is not always helpful.

I remember being about 14 and going through a phase of wearing Metallica t shirts, German army shirts and bandanas. I imagine people would have said I was trans then, but I was just exploring clothes and identity.

Hopefully you would have been considered a teenaged girl, if someone had to label you, maybe a non-conforming teenaged girl. Hopefully the first thought was not to say you were trans.

@Malahaha

Off topic but your school sounds highly fucked up. How dare they assess girls’ bodies to see whether they warrant ‘moving up’ to the new uniform. I’ve never heard anything like it and I hope they’ve either shut down or radically changed their behaviour.

For one, this was in the 50's, early 60's.

It was a simple uniform rule,as many school still have. A skirt needed hips to hold it up, otherwise it would not fit properly. They were also expensive so it made no sense buying clothes for a child, when that child would probably make a growth spurt a year later.

You sound very young, with your "how dare they!". See, in those days we dealt with rules we didn't like or were embarrassing etc. We learnt to just get on with it. I found their "eat what's on your plate" rule much, much worse, as I was a fussy eater -- but you know what, dealing with that rule also helped mature me, and gave me a lot of stories to laugh about later in life! How I got around eating liver and mushy peas!
I think we were far more stoic, back in the day. Nobody would have a strop because of uniform rules.

It was the best school I ever went to, actually. Utterly fantastic. Yes, even the strictness, which I needed.

I see it as humiliating young girls based on what their bodies look like by making them dress differently. Some girls will remain skinny their whole lives and will have very narrow, boyish hips and a flat chest. How would they have fared in your school? Also, a skirt doesn’t need hips to fit, and you can alter the skirt if it doesn’t fit properly. Of course your body will change as you grow and that’s why you buy new clothes if they don’t fit you any longer. Even if you have hips at 12, you’re likely to grow more before the age of 16 so I doubt all the girls with hips could have worn the same uniform throughout their school days.

Odd that you’re defending it, really. Personally, having to wear different clothes because the teachers didn’t think my body was womanly enough would have been deeply humiliating. It’s hard enough being a late developer, let alone having to be publicly shamed for it on a daily basis.