Non binary daughter

[lovelilies]

My 15 year old has revealed she's non binary.
She's always been a 'tomboy', short hair, boys clothes etc, which I've always supported without much (I think) judgement.
I thought I was helping raise a feminist, she knows a lot about women's issues, we have a very close and open and liberal relationship.

She was diagnosedASD at 11, I know there seem to be more NB/ trans etc people with ASD. I myself have ADHD diagnosed as an adult. I'm female, straight, none feminine. I don't wear make up much (once a month if that), colourful but not 'ladylike' clothes, definitely not groomed don't know if that's relevant just trying to set the scene!

I'm struggling with the pronoun thing. They've changed their name to a unisex name (fine, it's their name, I can do that) but the whole them/they thing really doesn't sit right!
She's a girl to me, my daughter. She doesn't have to be 'girly' but I don't get why she can't just be herself WHILE being a girl?
I will chat more with her, I just want the dust to settle a bit so I don't upset her. She's sent me a link tonight for a chest binder (she's very large of bust - 28 FF) I don't know whether to buy her one? She says she's saving up for it.

She does have a boyfriend, he's supportive of these changes which I'm surprised about but also glad. He is cis male and 'straight'. They've been together a year and are sexually active. I asked if she wants to be a bit but she said no, thankfully.

Just after some opinions, advice, anything? I'm secretly hoping it'll run it's course and she will be comfortable being herself.

Thanks for listening!

And hysterectomies, OldCrone.

In fact, The Equality Network trans lobby group in Scotland gave evidence the Culture &Tourism Committee of the Scottish Government that a reason why the census should include "non-binary" as a sex is because female non-binary people often have a hysterectomy and therefore don't require cervical screening, so it wouldn't impact the data for female health planning .

Sorry pear , slightly confused as your post was deleted.

I don't think you can, or should generalise. There will be Male none binary who do surgery or hormone,s and Not all female none binary people do either.

Of course, if we want to talk about the sex differences in how male and females can present as none binary, it's difficult without talking about typical or average group behaviours ,

class based analysis which is crucial to any consideration of discrimination, can then easily been seen to be generalising, which can lead to more deletions. It's like any consideration of sex discrimination needs a NAMALT type of disclaimer to avoid the generalisation trap.

Oh yes, we mustn't do any class analysis. Not on the Feminism board, not on Mumsnet.

There's no big picture to see here, no siree. Just lots of entirely unconnected individual events, that seem to follow one of two pattern for each of the two discrete groups but we're not allowed to identify them so we're not allowed to acknowledge that.

We need to work out how to have those conversations.

Ah so that’s why I got deleted - for generalising . I wondered why.

I never understanding about the evils of generalising because pattern recognition skills are behind much of what we talk about on MN.

Don’t worry, most kids can’t read at 4 .

The average age when babies walk is 10-18 months so your child is normal.

He sounds like an averagely annoying teenager.

Most employers wouldn’t think that was reasonable.

That’s not a normal symptom, you need to see a GP.

Aldi stock that product and it’s much cheaper than Tesco.

That’s in The Cheaters Script.

Many children with dyslexia find that hard.

I’m sorry but these are classic signs that there’s An OW.

I find that happens to my cakes too If I don’t add enough liquid.

Etc etc. All about analysing patterns.

I guess when you are talking about a discriminated against group then negative generalisations can grate. " women are emotional when on their period" feels very different form "some women feel emotional when on their period" or "most women report that ..."

@midgebabe

I guess when you are talking about a discriminated against group then negative generalisations can grate. " women are emotional when on their period" feels very different form "some women feel emotional when on their period" or "most women report that ..."

Are non binary people discriminated against?

I would say that anyone who is gender none conforming experiences additional discrimination
You are much more likely to be bullied and othered if you don't fit in
And having negative generalisations made could easil6 be seen as a form of bullying

Being picked on for the way you dress isn't discrimination.
Being 'non binary' is a different thing to being an effeminate man or masculine woman (groups who do face discrimination due to unchangeable characteristics).

I think anyone who dresses or looks a bit different to "the norm" can get flak for it. How this translates into discrimination I don't know. It probably does in some circumstances.

@PearPickingPorky

My [non-binary] dd wears a binder, she doesn't have large boobs, but for her, it is not about getting a good bra etc, it is about having a flat male chest.

Why is a male chest 'non-binary'? It's not non-binary, it's male. A flat chest is no more non-binary than large breasts are.

I didn't say a male chest was non-binary. I said that for her that was the look she wanted.

She has been wearing 'boys clothes' since she was about 10, the look she wants is androgenous, which actually means pretty male as far as I can see. That is what she is looking for, and that seems to be common among non-binary kids.

I agree it is not logical.

because female non-binary people often have a hysterectomy and therefore don't require cervical screening, so it wouldn't impact the data for female health planning

That’s hilarious. What do they think all those additional hysterectomies come under, if not ‘female health’ planning?

I’m sure some non-binary people get picked on for having an unusual appearance, same as extensively tattooed people and goths.

Being extensively tattooed/wearing black or dying one’s hair blue (or indeed paying for cosmetic surgery that results in a mix of primary and secondary sex characteristics) is not a civil rights issue.

Being picked on , beaten up, ignored, simply because you reject gender norms ( either as GC or as none binary ) will mean that you are being treated poorly for arbitrary reasons , if other people like you suffer thee same baseless poor treatment then it is discrimination

Both gc and none binary people will experience very similar types of discrimination. What is different is how they are handling , processing that discrimination internally.

@BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero

because female non-binary people often have a hysterectomy and therefore don't require cervical screening, so it wouldn't impact the data for female health planning

That’s hilarious. What do they think all those additional hysterectomies come under, if not ‘female health’ planning?

I’m sure some non-binary people get picked on for having an unusual appearance, same as extensively tattooed people and goths.

Being extensively tattooed/wearing black or dying one’s hair blue (or indeed paying for cosmetic surgery that results in a mix of primary and secondary sex characteristics) is not a civil rights issue.

I know, ridiculous, isn't it.

The fact that EN's non-binary Vic's argument was actually another reason why we need to have accurate sex data for non-binary people, because we need to know what the breakdown is of the non-binary people who will be "needing" radical surgery at a young age with the resulting decades of medical treatment that requires, and the proportion that just need makeup and clothes and photos of themselves with a net curtain draped over them in a hotel room.

It's quite a significant difference, isn't it.

For example, obviously NAN-BMALT.

But you get people who are non binary but present according to the norms for their sex.

It's not a given that they will dress/ present in a certain way and what are we even talking about? People have been dressing all sorts of ways for decades. Boys in makeup/ girls with skinheads etc. Yes there can be nasty comments but it's not exactly that unusual.

None of this makes much sense to me tbh.

The thing that really confuses me is that if sex is not anything really and gender is. And twiw and tmam then that would mean that non binary means no sex. Which is obviously nonsense.

Yeah whole thing is ??? and the fact that some of the things non binary girls are doing are so much more extreme than non binary boys is also telling.

I wish someone could explain "non- binary" to me. This list screams "raging narcissist more than anything else.

There are a couple of individuals where just from appearance I think ,"yes, ok , I see where you're coming from". Others like the bearded blokes and Janelle Monae with a ton of make-up and cleavage exposing dress- what are they on about?

www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/9-celebrities-who-identify-as-gender-non-binary-2019-6%3famp

Yeah. I’m a big fan of individual expression, whether GNC or just non-conforming in other ways (ie historical/ vintage dress enthusiasts).

But you do have to either be compliant with workplace dress codes or choose jobs where personal expression is a bonus (or not visible to the public, ie call centres). The world can’t be expected to bend around the individual.

Of course bullying is unacceptable, Midge but if you go out on a limb to stand out then some disapproval and unkindness is going to be inevitable and I don’t think a tattooed person (such as myself) deserves the same workplace protection as a person who looks different due to factors outside and of personal choice, ie, being of a minority ethnicity in the country where you live or having a visible difference from birth, such as a port wine birthmark, or due to progressive illness or accident.

That’s why I mean when I say it’s not a civil rights issue. It’s a personal freedom issue. Important to many, yes, but not to the point of special societal allowances.

My hypothesis is that the bullying starts long before any outside expression of none binary ness

So the girl who excels in maths, has no interest in make up, is the target for a lot of school girl hate
Grow big boobs and you are at the receiving end of a lot of sexist nastiness also

Some of us grow thick skins, but you also search for people who accept you as you are

And the none binary community gives that girl a community that welcomes her

And the bullying continues, she hasn't made it worse by aligning with the community, she has give herself a support group . But , as all youths seem to do, she demonstrates her alignment with that community with the short hair cut ( longer on top) and androgenous dressing that requires a flat chest. She has tried to explain to people as best she can that she isn't a girlie sort of girl, in the hope that will mean she can be herself without getting a hard time because of it. And in some situations that works, some people do seem adjust their expectations and tolerance because they can now fit her into a nice tidy box that is no threat to them

And she doesn't really understand that once people, decide to hate you, no explanation will help.

Perhaps, but that makes it no different to any other alternative youth culture of the last 50 years.

There will always be misfits, I am proud to be one, but a society that encourages misfits to self harm through surgery is new and horrifying development.

Re tattoos....i guess I think society should be as tolerant as possible and only have rules where it really relevant? The only thing possibly harmed by a tattoo is someone else's idea of beauty ( the feeling that something is offensive it in your opinion it doesn't look nice ) and conformity

It's like freedom to carry guns seems ok in some places even though there is a direct link to harming others, yet girls being a bricklayer or not wearing makeup is heinous yes, neither hurt others

And yes, absolutely, I do agree that having to physically change yourself to feel part of society is wrong

BettyDuKeira
I hadn't realised how deformed binding makes the breasts. Thank you for sharing those images. It seems it would be self perpetuating that if your breasts look like this when you remove your binder you may hate them even more and then progress to removal. Just awful.

[quote DidoLamenting]I wish someone could explain "non- binary" to me. This list screams "raging narcissist more than anything else.

There are a couple of individuals where just from appearance I think ,"yes, ok , I see where you're coming from". Others like the bearded blokes and Janelle Monae with a ton of make-up and cleavage exposing dress- what are they on about?

www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/9-celebrities-who-identify-as-gender-non-binary-2019-6%3famp[/quote]
I know...ridiculous isn't it?!!! Xx

AFAIK everyone is non binary. Except for the tiny minority who 100% match society’s stereotypes of what a proper woman / man / girl / boy is.

In fact I don’t know anyone who is binary. I know there must be some somewhere out there - I just know don’t any of them. Actually it would make more sense for people to “ come out “ as binary.

“ Hey everyone - for years I’ve been pretending to be a unique and complex person but now I’ve realised I’m just a one dimensional stereotype. I’m off to read Cosmopolitan to see what rules I have to follow for the rest of my life “.

That’s a general comment on fitting people into boxes BTW . It’s not aimed at the OPs DD, who is obviously just trying to work out who she is. Much like every single other teenager.

I