Gender neutral toilet in Starbucks, and I’m livid

[MisfitRightIn]

I’m completely grossed out by something that happened last weekend. My 7yr DD and I went into what looked to be a brand new Starbucks, for a snack mid-3hr road trip. We live on the west coast US, for context.

Placed our order, then went to use the ladies room. There was no ladies room. The bathroom had a hand written sign saying GENDER NEUTRAL, ONE PERSON OR FAMILY AT A TIME. A man was leaving, and had left the door ajar. Pushing open the door, I see 2 other blokes using urinals, at which point I back out, whilst turning my daughter around so she doesn’t get an eyeful.

In the US, there aren’t double doors to bathrooms, and the urinals were on the left as the door opened right. Everything was out in the open in there.

We wait our turn, and once it’s clear, we go in and lock the door. There are 3 urinals in a row, and one stall, and the room smells like, well, a urinal. It seems like men are just using it like the gents, and this is the result.

I think I’m overreacting, I’m stressed leading up to the US election, and feeling fractious from lockdown, but WTF, it was utterly disgusting. We both took showers and changed clothes as soon as we arrived, as I was sure our shoes and jeans were gross. I’m still livid. Is this our future??? No ladies room and putting up with this shit?

The bit about the door and the pull and the push seems random within the context of the email.
Honestly? I think they’ll roll their eyes and make noise about contacting the branch concerned, before offering a generic apology.

IMO the part about the opening of the door is unnecessary and adds nothing. You need to be clearer about what actually upsets you, otherwise the recipient of the complaint will focus on the detracting issue and ignore the main crux of your complaint.

I would also remove the part about 'leads sensible people to make mistakes' because that will be read as an admission that the error is yours, not theirs.

I think you need to state clearly that you view it as a hygiene and safeguarding issue for women and especially girls. No company wants to be seen as not taking hygiene and child safeguarding seriously.
You also need to state clearly what outcome you want. Otherwise you'll just receive a generic response saying, "that's our company policy ... inclusivity ... blah blah".

Don't hesitate to say you won't be using Starbucks again due to this, if that's a reality. A potential loss of custom makes most companies sit up and listen. Also say how disgusted you are by this.

PS: I'm a veteran complainer to various organisations and my complaints almost always achieve the desired outcome.

I wouldn’t really mention the gender neutral/mixed sex thing either as they might just dismiss your complaint being on those grounds. Stick to saying that it isn’t working in practice for women because men are seeing it as a men’s facility as that’s what it looks like.

Well done you.
I think in finishing the letter be clear about your desired solution. From what you've written so far, I am a little unsure whether you just find it inappropriate that multiple men use it at the same time (I.e. you wouldn't mind the set up as long as just one man at a time used it, with the door locked). Or do you think there should be no urinal at all? Be specific.
I also think remove the sentence about push/pull on the door. It's confusing!

Forgot to say: it's always a good idea to check their website for some sort of policy statement about their ethos and values etc and quote that back to them. That ensures that they can't really fob you off without looking insincere.

Thanks for the constructive criticism and pointers. I’m so distracted today with our General election, and I can see I went off on a tangent there.

This looks like a task for tomorrow, when I’ve got more time. Thanks again.

I did a quick overhaul, but I realize I’m waffling too much .......

I am writing to complain about the general layout and cleanliness of your Gender Neutral bathroom.

My daughter and I visited your Starbucks on Thursday, October 29th, 2020. As we entered there was a man leaving the restroom. We approached the restroom, where there was a hand written paper sign taped on the door saying GENDER NEUTRAL, ONE PERSON OR FAMILY AT A TIME.

As I’d seen a man leave, and the door was ajar, I presumed it was vacant, so I pushed the door open. The door opened to the right, and inside there were two men using the urinals on the left. I quickly backed out, whilst turning my daughter around so she didn’t see anything.

We waited until both men left before entering. In the restroom, on the left there was a sink, followed by 3 urinals, and at the end was 1 stall. The room looked like a men’s room. The floors were soaking wet, stank of urine, the sink was filthy, and the overall space was disgusting. I don’t believe this is the best that Starbucks can do.

I’m sure it wasn’t meant to be used as a men’s restroom, but at a glance, that’s what it is. When men see a urinals in a line, they’re going to presume it’s the men’s restroom, as that is what it looks like. As my daughter and I waited to pick up our order, and my husband came to join us. He told me the same thing continued to happen, where multiple men were using the restroom as if it was the mens room.

Having a separate restroom for women, or a single space wIthout the row of urinals, would be my personal preference. And said spaces should be clearly marked. I see the current set up as a hygiene and safeguarding issue for women, and especially girls.

I am informing my family and friend of this issue, and I won’t be using this or any other Starbucks again until the problem is resolved favorably for women and children.

You could also add something along the lines of:

"Starbucks state their 'core values' as: " ... connecting with transparency, dignity and respect. Delivering our very best in all we do, holding ourselves accountable ..."
There seems to be no recognition of any dignity or respect for the female users of these facilities and I am sure this is not the very best that Starbucks can do."

You could also consider changing the part about "would be my personal preference" to something like "would demonstrate an awareness that safety, comfort and dignity are necessary for all your female customers". Indicate that this is an issue that affects half their customer base, not just one person.

Another tactic that works quite well is to enquire drily what their priorities are. In this case, the safety and dignity of their female customers, or the provision of a 'gender neutral' restroom?

Don't be too apologetic; shame them into changing this arrangement.

I love to stick the knife in a bit when I make a complaint, so I would probably make the final paragraph even more punchy, but I'm a bit of a witch and I appreciate that's not everyone's communication style. I'd probably write something like, "I am informing my family and friends of this issue and I have no doubt that they, like me, will avoid using this or any other Starbucks until we are reassured that Starbucks are able to recognise and respect the dignity and safety of its female customers."

Also, OP, I note your use of British English words such as 'bloke' and 'wee'. Are you British living in the US, or just using British English words?

@RasherOfWind

Thanks so much for the tips on additions and recommended changes. This is why Mumsnet is so helpful. I appreciate your time.

Yes, I’m British (grew up in the NorthWest), and moved to the US 20+ years ago. I still sound just like my siblings who’ve never moved from our home town. And crazily, so do all my US born kids, even though DH is American.

@MisfitRightIn

You're welcome; it's a pleasure to help. I've been making written complaints regularly for around 15 years now. I used to be too polite and worried about upsetting people at the start. Now I've toughened up a lot and don't give a shit. The pen truly can be mightier than the sword!

That IS pretty weird that your DC have your accent, while being surrounded by an American one. Their friends and teachers must find it odd too.

Good luck and hope you get a positive outcome! x

@TildaKauskumholm

I agree that it's crap and I think discriminatory against women and girls .... But I have to ask why you would let your jeans drop to the floor in ANY public toilet?

So what is the magic trick to stop the bottoms of your pants legs touching the floor when you lower your pants, then?

"Stick to saying that it isn’t working in practice for women because men are seeing it as a men’s facility as that’s what it looks like."

Isn't that all that needs saying-that & that it was disgusting?

So what is the magic trick to stop the bottoms of your pants legs touching the floor when you lower your pants, then?

Velcro legs

@HecatesCats

So what is the magic trick to stop the bottoms of your pants legs touching the floor when you lower your pants, then?

Velcro legs

@HecatesCats

So what is the magic trick to stop the bottoms of your pants legs touching the floor when you lower your pants, then?

Velcro legs

This gave me a much needed laugh, thanks!

@RasherOfWind

You could also add something along the lines of:

"Starbucks state their 'core values' as: " ... connecting with transparency, dignity and respect. Delivering our very best in all we do, holding ourselves accountable ..."
There seems to be no recognition of any dignity or respect for the female users of these facilities and I am sure this is not the very best that Starbucks can do."

You could also consider changing the part about "would be my personal preference" to something like "would demonstrate an awareness that safety, comfort and dignity are necessary for all your female customers". Indicate that this is an issue that affects half their customer base, not just one person.

Another tactic that works quite well is to enquire drily what their priorities are. In this case, the safety and dignity of their female customers, or the provision of a 'gender neutral' restroom?

Don't be too apologetic; shame them into changing this arrangement.

I love to stick the knife in a bit when I make a complaint, so I would probably make the final paragraph even more punchy, but I'm a bit of a witch and I appreciate that's not everyone's communication style. I'd probably write something like, "I am informing my family and friends of this issue and I have no doubt that they, like me, will avoid using this or any other Starbucks until we are reassured that Starbucks are able to recognise and respect the dignity and safety of its female customers."

Also, OP, I note your use of British English words such as 'bloke' and 'wee'. Are you British living in the US, or just using British English words?

@RasherOfWind that’s brilliant! I’m not surprised you are a “a veteran complainer to various organisations and my complaints almost always achieve the desired outcome.“ !!

@EyesOpening:
Thank you, that's very kind.

I really do enjoy doing it these days, although I was sweating blood when I tackled a big organisation for the first time. I feel strongly that organisations and individuals should be accountable for their decisions and professional conduct.

If anyone has a complaint I can help with, send it my way and I'll be only too happy to help.

@diddl

"Stick to saying that it isn’t working in practice for women because men are seeing it as a men’s facility as that’s what it looks like."

Isn't that all that needs saying-that & that it was disgusting?

That's a good point to make.

But I suspect that if that point alone is the focus, the issue will be passed to the individual franchise. They won't really know how to handle it, won't have the power to make any real changes and the OP will be fobbed off with "that's our policy etc" and nothing will change. To really instigate a change, it needs to be made clear that this is a safety and hygiene policy issue. Not just an individual franchise being a bit crap.

@RasherOfWind

I'm betting that the lavatory in the new building was designed and built by men, with no thought about womens' and girls' comfort and safety at all. I understand your disgust entirely.

Was shocked recently to see a toilet door at an HE establishment in the UK marked 'All Genders'. All Genders !! FFS.

I work at a UK higher education establishment and in my department there is a single loo that has a sign saying "All genders welcome" on the door. It's ludicrous. I don't think anyone on the planet thinks that a single, lockable cubicle would be off limits to anyone. Never mind the fact that sexed bodies use toilet facilities not genders.

@pictish

How do you have the time in your life to dedicate to this? Seriously.

I came across the same situation in KFC recently. The women’s toilets were closed with the men’s remaining open for general use. No it wasn’t the loveliest loo I’ve ever visited but I wasn’t livid about it.

@pictish It's mainly young unemployed men who have endless time on their hands. Also, it's funny that no one challenges the trans activist keyboard warriors who seems to have endless time on their hands to complain to companies, make demands and troll women online. That's why I thought it was odd that you would diminish her issue in this way.

It's because women have less time (because of multiple caring responsibilities), it's because we complain less and we're less aggressive about it when we do that fewer things are done for us.

Was shocked recently to see a toilet door at an HE establishment in the UK marked 'All Genders'. All Genders !! FFS

Was there glitter all over the toilet seat?

@IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2

Was shocked recently to see a toilet door at an HE establishment in the UK marked 'All Genders'. All Genders !! FFS

Was there glitter all over the toilet seat?

Sequins

Sequins

Ow!

😂

some effective and clever pointers in this thread... will any of you respond to the gov toilet call for evidence?