Gender neutral toilet in Starbucks, and I’m livid

[MisfitRightIn]

I’m completely grossed out by something that happened last weekend. My 7yr DD and I went into what looked to be a brand new Starbucks, for a snack mid-3hr road trip. We live on the west coast US, for context.

Placed our order, then went to use the ladies room. There was no ladies room. The bathroom had a hand written sign saying GENDER NEUTRAL, ONE PERSON OR FAMILY AT A TIME. A man was leaving, and had left the door ajar. Pushing open the door, I see 2 other blokes using urinals, at which point I back out, whilst turning my daughter around so she doesn’t get an eyeful.

In the US, there aren’t double doors to bathrooms, and the urinals were on the left as the door opened right. Everything was out in the open in there.

We wait our turn, and once it’s clear, we go in and lock the door. There are 3 urinals in a row, and one stall, and the room smells like, well, a urinal. It seems like men are just using it like the gents, and this is the result.

I think I’m overreacting, I’m stressed leading up to the US election, and feeling fractious from lockdown, but WTF, it was utterly disgusting. We both took showers and changed clothes as soon as we arrived, as I was sure our shoes and jeans were gross. I’m still livid. Is this our future??? No ladies room and putting up with this shit?

My sons and husband would be mortified if they were standing having a wee at a urinal and a girl or woman walked in, especially a girl.

If there were a row of urinals then the lads would not expect to lock the door to the room behind them. Nor would they expect girls coming in.

In unisex loos with one urinal, one toilet, one sink, then they'd naturally lock the door and not expect a random stranger to expect to be in the room with them.

This sounds like a very badly planned unisex toilet at Starbucks.

I'm as GC as they come but I have no issue with the standard unisex facilities in UK coffee shops and cafes. What you've described is a standard men's toilet labelled gender neutral, which will not meet the needs for men nor women for dignity and safety.

I include men in the safety aspect. My DH would absolutely not allow himself to be in a space with his knob out where a random young girl might be present. He would go outside and piss in the bushes. He would insist our teenage boys do the same.

Guess you have never used a public toilet in Mexico City, Cambodia or the Sudan...

Lowering the tone for a moment, why does this make me think of the dialogue in Airplane ?

Also why is a race to the bottom a good thing? Women in some parts of rural India risk rape every time they go for a shit in the fields due to lack of toilet facilities. This is an argument for working with groups within India to provide better toilet facilities, not an argument for putting up with substandard toilet facilities in our country (or the US).

"If there were a row of urinals then the lads would not expect to lock the door to the room behind them. Nor would they expect girls coming in."

But where there is a sign saying one person or family at a time surely they would lock the door as it's not then excusively for male use?

@diddl

"If there were a row of urinals then the lads would not expect to lock the door to the room behind them. Nor would they expect girls coming in."

But where there is a sign saying one person or family at a time surely they would lock the door as it's not then excusively for male use?

Well clearly not in this case

@diddl

"If there were a row of urinals then the lads would not expect to lock the door to the room behind them. Nor would they expect girls coming in."

But where there is a sign saying one person or family at a time surely they would lock the door as it's not then excusively for male use?

If all the major visual cues say this is a men's toilet they would probably not absorb the meaning of the sign.

If they walked up to the room, the door were open and two other men were at the urinals they would not think for a second it is a single user facility being misused. They would see a standard men's toilet, nothing out of the ordinary. If they did notice the sign they would probably assume it to be a mistake.

How often have you gone up to a door with a handle, pulled it, nothing happened then you noticed the big sign saying "Push". Bad design leads sensible people to get things wrong.

I honestly don't think most decent men begrudge women having single sex facilities.
I agree, HecatesCats, and a lot of men feel quite strongly about that, especially if they have daughters. So - most women want them, most men are fine with that, most people can see that they are necessary for many women. But everything is overturned at the whim of a vanishingly small minority.

Guess you have never used a public toilet in Mexico City, Cambodia or the Sudan

[whispers:] I know you think women don't deserve anything decent, but you're not meant to give it away.

I agree that decent men don't want this either.

My son would have died on the spot as a teenager.
I once had to use a public toilet where the facilities were single sex but that were designed so that the only access to the men's toilet was through the women's. Every single man I saw looked horrified when they realised what was going on, and either backed away or scurried through, apologising and with their eyes down.

I find the safety, dignity and privacy that women are expected to give up without blinking in response to the demand for inclusivity absolutely terrifying and I’m shocked that some posters think you’re making a fuss about nothing OP.

Also very intrigued by the mention of German mothers teaching their sons to wee sitting down. My six-year-old DS has always done this, and refuses to contemplate stand-up wees. DH is convinced that he’s got to switch to standing up and I’ve never really seen the big deal - delighted to know that I’m accidentally endorsing feminist German parenting!

This is a really interesting point, HecatesCats and thinkingaboutLangCleg: when women pushed to be included in the public sphere and felt we needed separate spaces to accommodate that, most men felt that was fine. There was not a huge brouhaha of men horrified that women asking for separate spaces were calling all men rapists, or whatever. So if men “got it” and handled it - why can’t/ won’t trans people?

Im ok with the idea that there are gender neutral lockable toilets only on two conditions:

1. staff ensure everyone actually uses it one at a time and locks it behind so no one can walk in on them

2. they are kept clean and tidy at all times

The issue here was 1 and 2 were not done. Your complaint imo should focus on these two aspects not on the gender aspect.

[quote chickenyhead]@IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2

I don't know that at all. It is completely comparable.

The door had a lock. It should be used.[/quote]

I'm sorry. Do they have urinals in disabled toilets? Do more than one person use them at a time?

when women pushed to be included in the public sphere and felt we needed separate spaces to accommodate that, most men felt that was fine.

Really? I thought I remember reading men burned down the first women’s toilets.

So yes, not most men opposed it probably, but some very noisy and activist men did. Like today.

How often have you gone up to a door with a handle, pulled it, nothing happened then you noticed the big sign saying "Push". Bad design leads sensible people to get things wrong.

Excellent point!

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

Guess you have never used a public toilet in Mexico City, Cambodia or the Sudan

[whispers:] I know you think women don't deserve anything decent, but you're not meant to give it away.

🤣

Here's an interesting blog post about German men sitting to pee. Near the end there's a video with ultraviolet images of droplets spread around and outside the toilet when men pee standing up, and how it accumulates over a week.
Fascinating subject!

www.mylifeingermany.com/german-men-sit-pee/

I agree that it's crap and I think discriminatory against women and girls .... But I have to ask why you would let your jeans drop to the floor in ANY public toilet?

[quote Malahaha]Here's an interesting blog post about German men sitting to pee. Near the end there's a video with ultraviolet images of droplets spread around and outside the toilet when men pee standing up, and how it accumulates over a week.
Fascinating subject!

www.mylifeingermany.com/german-men-sit-pee/[/quote]
Crikey that film at the end is an eye-opener. No wonder men's loos smell.

The amount of splashback is awful. And it would appear that aiming for the porcelain at the back, which a lot of men do because they think it will reduce it, creates a huge mist of urine.

The best place is the porcelain at the front. Who knew?

But really, they should be cleaning the toilet, with antibacterial wipes, after every use.

So no, no gender neutral toilets, for the love of Mike. Ugh.

Film of the splashback test

@TildaKauskumholm

I agree that it's crap and I think discriminatory against women and girls .... But I have to ask why you would let your jeans drop to the floor in ANY public toilet?

It's crap It's discriminatory But yeah, that's the big question

But really, they should be cleaning the toilet, with antibacterial wipes, after every use.

Right? They should place a disinfectant dispenser in every mixed-sex loo, or wipes. I guess the culprits wouldn't even use it, but at least women could do so.

I would expect unisex toilets to be maintained properly, especially if on retail premises. That is revolting.

I would also expect the retail outlet to ensure customers locked the sodding door.

They provide the facility, they are responsible for it.

I'm betting that the lavatory in the new building was designed and built by men, with no thought about womens' and girls' comfort and safety at all. I understand your disgust entirely.

Was shocked recently to see a toilet door at an HE establishment in the UK marked 'All Genders'. All Genders !! FFS.

You must lobby and write to Starbucks

I’m still writing this up, and here is what I have so far. I’ve used a number of points made by people on here, I hope that ok.

I won’t get back to this thread until much later, as I’m WFH, kids off school, and I’ve got to go and Vote (#teamJoe).

There are a few people obsessed with the hem of our jeans, calling me barmy, and doing some America bashing, glad you got that off your chest LOL.

Mumsnet really is a great place for support and perspective, and I find myself constantly educated on issues of the day, so thanks everyone.