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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

971 replies

chilling19 · 31/10/2020 07:01

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www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7355c886-1aea-11eb-8493-5b46eb56a071?shareToken=4752a364029a4a557a2ba26a99d985d4

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14
NRatched · 04/11/2020 23:21

Oddly, I did not pick up on JJ being American until this thread. Must have been living under a rock Blush

jj1968 · 04/11/2020 23:21

@Datun

Women will be guaranteed access to female-only lavatories in public buildings, the government has said.
What the government actually said:

The review that I have launched today will help women be assured of the necessary provision of toilets.

Just in case you needed assuring that toilets are a necessary provision.

I support the review, I think it's a good thing to look into, but I can also recognise spin from both a Tory MP and the Murdoch press when I see it. I shan't be holding my breath for sweeping reforms, or even noticeable ones.

Datun · 04/11/2020 23:51

Robert Jenrick, the communities secretary, said: “This is a necessity, and I have listened to the concerns raised by many women and the elderly in relation to this issue. I [want] to establish the best way to deliver this as a priority and make sure that women can expect a sense of dignity, security and safety when using facilities.

Wait, now I'm confused.

We don't have to stick our busts out to draw vital attention to them???

jj1968 · 05/11/2020 00:05

@Datun

Robert Jenrick, the communities secretary, said: “This is a necessity, and I have listened to the concerns raised by many women and the elderly in relation to this issue. I [want] to establish the best way to deliver this as a priority and make sure that women can expect a sense of dignity, security and safety when using facilities.

Wait, now I'm confused.

We don't have to stick our busts out to draw vital attention to them???

I think it's very telling that you see the testimony of gender nonconforming lesbians discussing how the behaviour of some people towards them in single sex spaces impacts on them as one big joke.
Facefullofcake · 05/11/2020 00:07

It's very telling that you ignore the experiences of all the women on here and prioritise the experiences of US trans women, but hey ho.

NRatched · 05/11/2020 00:09

Datun. Tut tut. Naughty BAD feminist.

ChattyLion · 05/11/2020 00:59

Facefull Flowers I’m sorry that you had to deal with all of that at such a young age (or at any age, ever).

Malahaha · 05/11/2020 07:09

Why does jj keep talking about bathroom bills? This is not America; in the UK or Ireland toilets aren't referred to as bathrooms and there is no "bill" being imposed.

On another note, I think women have a "sense" of a person's actual sex that goes beyond appearance. We can tell. Maybe it's the scent a man produces, even if wearing a skirt and high heels, maybe it's just a vibe he produces. I'm pretty sure if were blindfolded and placed next to a person and asked if they were male or female, I'd know, even before the spoke. It's a sensory thing.

I was thinking the other day how confusing the gender stuff must be for children. Young children are busy learning the names for the things they see; it's the most exciting part of being a toddler. My 2 year old gd is at the moment fascinated by "girls". Wherever we go, she points and says "girl" whenever we see one, and she can tell -- even if they are in trousers and have short hair. Women, btw, are also "girls" for her and men are "boys". She knows the anatomical difference because she gets in the bathtub with her dad.
How do you explain to a child, if you belive in gender, that somebody might look like a girl but actually, deep in side, they are actually a boy, and vice versa? How very confusing! It can't be healthy.

My 11 year old granddaughter loves animals, especially horses; when she goes to pat a horse, the first thing she wants to know is its sex, and she bends over to look. We have a cat, and I tend to misgender him as "she" because I lived with my daughter for a while and her cat is female, and because I'm dozy sometimes.

Whenever I "misgender" the cat, this granddaughter corrects me with a stern word: he's a HE!!!! But.... what if the cat identifies as a female cat? What then?

Malahaha · 05/11/2020 07:15

@NRatched

Oddly, I did not pick up on JJ being American until this thread. Must have been living under a rock Blush
I had no idea till now! That explains a lot. Flowers facefullofcake
VulvaPerson · 05/11/2020 07:20

I can't imagine trying to teach a child gender bollocks. Where would you even start really?

Mine know what sex they are. But everything else..free for all really. They do often come home confused as 'X said only girls do handstands' or whatever. Which tends to get a 'yeah some silly people think that, but whoever wants to do handstands can do handstands', which seems to leave them happy enough.

I cannot imagine answering something like that with 'yes X is entirely correct. If you like doing handstands when boys are not meant to, then that means you are actually a girl deep down' Hmm

Winesalot · 05/11/2020 07:59

I take it jj did not read the twitter thread I posted. Maybe you should jj to get more womens perspectives. Of course, these are not the type of feminists you like and apparently know a lot of. These ones, like us, centre females. Even the tall, flat chested and hairy kind.

ArabellaScott · 05/11/2020 08:09

Umpteen women here saying they need single sex spaces, one person arguing endlessly endlessly against us all on the basis of something to do with US law. Ye cant apparently accept or respect our wishes, you're not even listening to the lesbians and non conforming women here who are countering your assertions with their lived experience. I'm glad the govt are more balanced on the matter:

I have listened to the concerns raised by many women and the elderly in relation to this issue. I [want] to establish the best way to deliver this as a priority and make sure that women can expect a sense of dignity, security and safety when using facilities.

ArabellaScott · 05/11/2020 08:11

Women: 'we want and need single sex spaces'

TRAs: 'you can't have them '

Is the gist of all of this, yes?

Kit19 · 05/11/2020 08:14

@ArabellaScott

Women: 'we want and need single sex spaces'

TRAs: 'you can't have them '

Is the gist of all of this, yes?

In a nutshell yes augmented with

“You can’t have them & we will force our way in whether you like it or not because you can’t stop us”

VulvaPerson · 05/11/2020 08:22

I take it jj did not read the twitter thread I posted.

No, given JJ seems to think the 'tall women' and the boob thing is about what JJ posted. Mind, I can see how that mistake could be made.

Floisme · 05/11/2020 08:23

Ah more textbook cajoling last night I see:

'Let me explain.'
'I'm the expert.'
'You can't stop me.'
'I'm going to do it anyway.'

It's as predictable as a hangover. And the answer's still 'no'.

Malahaha · 05/11/2020 08:28

Yes, in a nutshell.

NO.

Sexnotgender · 05/11/2020 08:33

@ArabellaScott

Women: 'we want and need single sex spaces'

TRAs: 'you can't have them '

Is the gist of all of this, yes?

Yeah pretty much.

Then some word salad about intersex and butch lesbians shoehorned in.

Sexnotgender · 05/11/2020 08:36

I wonder if JJ is really Clymer?

EmpressJKRowlingSpartacus · 05/11/2020 08:41

@Sexnotgender

I wonder if JJ is really Clymer?
Well, there’s been no mention of gold lame pocketbooks so far. I think jj just wants to keep saying it all one more time so it penetrates.
Datun · 05/11/2020 08:56

I think it's very telling that you see the testimony of gender nonconforming lesbians discussing how the behaviour of some people towards them in single sex spaces impacts on them as one big joke.

No you don't, lol.

Floisme · 05/11/2020 09:20

'This is no laughing matter.'

Unlike this thread, which is like a casebook on how to scold a woman.

Escapeplanning · 05/11/2020 10:21

This is no laughing matter.

Pompous arse. You are the laughing matter, you've made yourself one right here.

Winesalot · 05/11/2020 10:43

Just a reminder to jj. I don't recall any women who wishes to keep their spaces for women only suggesting 'gender cops' being parked outside of toilets.

What I have seen is thousands of tweets and many articles from 'SOME' of those activating for male access to women's toilets using this as an empty 'gotcha'. It fails to acknowledge a large number of things, like women's rightful concerns, but also fails to acknowledge history and RESPECT.

Historically women had the freedom to challenge someone who should not have been in there. If there was more than one women that is. Usually a women alone may simply leave without starting a potentially violent reaction. It used to be that was all it took and anyone outside might hear the commotion and come to assist.

The only reason 'gender cops' would ever be needed would be due to the complete lack of respect a male (penis person) has over a female single sex space and need to be officially ejected. Not because of women being at fault, because of males (penis people) who cannot respect a woman's boundaries.

But do crack on talking about 'gender cops' and 'genital inspections'. The derision that it evokes frankly adds to anyone who claims this's misogyny.

Winesalot · 05/11/2020 10:43

It seems that misogyny I am referring to comes from being born a penis person.

(blame Amnesty for this new inclusive language)