Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

[chilling19]

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www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7355c886-1aea-11eb-8493-5b46eb56a071?shareToken=4752a364029a4a557a2ba26a99d985d4

Womens, mens and changing, so either sex can use the baby changing rooms (though he did once say he waited for a woman to finish, as he had gone in and she looked nervous..hes a very big guy so I get it) though maybe..some changes there might be good, an area designated for women only perhaps.

Or simply a lockable door. We have a baby changing area in my town that is open to both sexes. One family at a time, lock the door when you go in. No problems at all! (There's a loo in there, too. So good for people with prams.)

Yeah single areas withlockable doors would work too.

The main shopping centre here has a large area for mixed baby changing (useful if in a rush, theres about 6 spaces IIRC), just open, with 2 private lockable ones. And 1 private lockable one that also has a loo in. And one private lockable area thats not used for changing but has a seat for breastfeeding should one shoce to do it there.

Ontop of this they have mens and womens loos. Disabled ones that are much larger than usual, and a disabled one with loads of different..support things that can be pulled down. And I did see a while back talks of adding a gender neutral one also.

This is a very good setup IMO. But obviously takes a lot of space too so is not doable everywhere.

Because outright just sayig that 'I think some me should be able to use womens areas because some other men are mean to them and they 'feel like women' because they enjoy feminine things' would be ripped apart in seconds, and would not gain any public support. Attaching it to other causes is all that can be done, as an example, see selfID slipped through under cover of equal marriage, rather than as its own matter. Hence, 'no debate', otherwise people wake up ad smell the bullshit.

Spot on. I am amazed that the only female right jj appears to care about is the right for "visibly gender nonconforming" women not to be mistaken for men in female single sex spaces (which is obviously wrong but not a problem created by feminists), completely coincidentally ensuring that no woman should ever feel entitled to challenge anyone who appears to be male in female single sex spaces. Amazed, I tell you.

journals.sagepub.com/eprint/HQCEMQYUYXDTCBKYCSBQ/full

Scrutinizing the U.S. Equality Act 2019: A Feminist Examination of Definitional Changes and Sociolegal Ramifications

In the interests of balance to upthread spamming.

Spot on. I am amazed that the only female right jj appears to care about is the right for "visibly gender nonconforming" women not to be mistaken for men in female single sex spaces (which is obviously wrong but not a problem created by feminists), completely coincidentally ensuring that no woman should ever feel entitled to challenge anyone who appears to be male in female single sex spaces. Amazed, I tell you.

The arguments to me look like the usual 'male feminist' shtick really

'A LOT of women chose prostitution, you are denying them the CHOICE. If you are against it for any reason you are denying those women their voices and being BAD FEMINISTS!'

'Most women chose to work in the sex industry. Stop taking away other womens choices. There are more important things ging on that you should focus on'

'Loads of women make thousands per night and can pick their own partners and only ever go with someone they fancy and are paid loads. Haven't you seen pretty woman?! Its exactly like that,. You are just bitter and jealous and ugly clearly.'

*other feminist matters. Crickets.

I felt this tweet thread was relevant.

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1323886250269528065?s=21

Pics for those not on twitter.

Loved the line ‘we don’t work it out by tit size you fool!’ I wish I knew what the tweet was that got deleted now.

If you want to cling to the reality-denying belief that we are not able to accurately perceive people's sex most of the time that's up to you, but it's not going to convince many people, least of all most of us, who are gender non-conforming. The idea that women stop flat-chested women going into changing rooms is fucking absurd.

Well, quite

Good god, the 'flat chested women wouldn't be able to use female areas' is such a ridiculous reach..I don't know whether to laugh at these people, or genuinely fear for their health. Funnily enough, women know that other women are not just walking pair of boobs!

@NRatched

Good god, the 'flat chested women wouldn't be able to use female areas' is such a ridiculous reach..I don't know whether to laugh at these people, or genuinely fear for their health. Funnily enough, women know that other women are not just walking pair of boobs!

As a 34A not trans woman (who doesn't wear a bra), I'm well tickled.

As a 36F 'gender non conforming woman' who everyone apparently thinks is a bloke, I am massively jealous and wonder if you would maybe swap with me. Especially being able to go bra-less, that would be bloody amazing!

I mean, everyone thinks I am a man anyway, so smaller boobs wouldn't change anything for me, but it might allow you to be able to use female areas without worrying you will be kicked out for not having giant tits?

Here is the deleted tweet!! So appropriate for this thread. Maybe Esther has been reading some of the posts here .

Quote from Esther. ‘But making non-conforming cis women (tall women, flat chested women, hairy women, etc) a scape goat in the process IS feminism? Because that is the crux. If you deny women access to spaces based on how they look, plenty of cis women will get caught out. That is not feminism.’ Sorry about the ‘cis’ing.

Ah. Tall women, hairy women and flat chested women will all be kicked out, if we wish to keep single sex spaces single sex. Interesting.

As I mentioned in another post up thread, as a flat chested women myself, this is laughable. As is the ‘sticking my boobs out’ to make sure women know I am a woman, just because I don’t wear clothes associated with women ffs. In fact, that Sainsburys TU advertorial about NB clothes pretty much covered my wardrobe.

I’d like to think I could still tell a tell, flat chested and hairy woman was in fact a tall woman with PCOS or another condition and I don’t look at breast size (or clothes, hair cuts etc) as a cue for working out the sex of a person.

The really interesting thing is that this "eviction of the unwomanly" stuff somehow never happened during the years between say 1920 and 2020.

The eviction of men from the Ladies by women, yes; but I have never come across a single case of a woman being asked by a woman to leave the Ladies because she wasn't a woman.

Have these idiots lived their whole lives in a Barbie theme park. Do they have any idea whatever so ever what a real woman looks like. Short haired non make up, high heel wearing, flat chested woman with body hair here. We are legion.

Sorry, I just got a flashback to Some Like It Hot, the scene on the railway station when Curtis and Lemon are watching Marilyn Munroe walking down the platform and one says to the other, "I tell you, it's a whole different sex". That film was clearly all the stereotypes in one economy size package, but they were right about being able to tell a woman from a man by the way he walks: it's generally a complete give-away even if he is foolishly wearing six-inch heels.

I had a lovely friend. 6ft, broad shoulders, square jawline and relatively flat chested. Never mistaken for a man. A very beautiful and striking woman.

Going tangentially back to the first time I was misgendered in any context:

I was fifteen in the mid nineties, so the era of long haired indie boys, I guess.

My older brother and me had helped my dad build a car, and I went with him to a garage run by someone who knew my family but hadn't seen us for a decade or so.

I was wearing a patchwork dungarees style dress, with sunglasses, hairy legs, doc martens and my confusingly flat chest, and had shoulder length hair in a ponytail.

The bloke at the garage thought I was my brother (even though me and my dad both corrected him). I still am not sure exactly how or why, but...

Maybe the 'helped build a car' thing threw him?

The most recent one was at the bank. I was wearing jeans/hoodie/docs and bulked up a bit clothing wise because winter, with a grade 1 cut and no makeup.

A flustered woman was using the cash point next to me, and told her toddler not to go too near 'that man' (without properly looking at me). Her kid said 'it's a lady', she said 'no, it's a man' (again, while trying to do whatever at the cash point) , and I just told the kid that yep, I was a lady.

I got an apology (that I hadn't been looking for) from her, after she took the time to actually look at me. I definitely didn't take offence, I was kind of amused tbh.

Maybe the 'helped build a car' thing threw him?

Yep. I used to pull my car apart and do some servicing jobs on it as a teenager. Certainly never made me a male, or even that I might be. Maybe it was seeing Kylie Minogue as Charlene on Neighbours.

My family were weird with gender stereotypes in some ways. My dad did all the DIY, budgeting, bills (I actually once found a contract between him and my mum saying how much allowance she could have a month, and stating the minimum she needed to spend on household and kids stuff out of it), but he did all the cooking and sewing as well. He encouraged me to help him with any and all of it, and he and my mum gave me the same opportunities as my brother. However, I was expected to get a good degree, a decent job, get married to someone on a good income, and have babies (but hey, I could still change a tyre and put up shelves if I wanted)

My brother had the good degree, decent job, get married, father kids and have a great long term career aspirations cast at him instead.

My dad insisted that I learnt to drive as soon as I could, because it was safer for a single young woman than buses and taxis etc - I'm really grateful that I was given that opportunity.

My mum did the cleaning and childcare. She worked part time as a supply teacher once we were at school, and dedicated most of her free time outside work to her job.

I was just thinking about her in terms of the passivity and pamperedness recently described elsewhere as "womanly".

Last I knew, she still didn't know how to use the remote control to change a tv channel. She left my dad once (once we kids had left home) after years of violence and abuse towards us all, but went back to him after viewing a council flat. In her words, she wanted to still have a nice front room and foreign holidays, and was terrified at the thought of being responsible for paying bills and living in a rough area. She ticks the passive and pampered boxes to an extent, but to her detriment.

I went to an all girls school and got to do car maintenance, CDT, and got a fairly decent feminist message with my education - there was never any "girls can't do that, sorry" . I think the only thing I can criticise is that our car maintenance and CDT teachers were all male - that was a long time ago though, and maybe women are better represented in those roles now?

I am having a full on waffle- sorry. I'm full of full caffeine coffee, with the US election on in the background and doing a lot of overthinking.

That was interesting to read facefull.

Thanks @Winesalot .

The Grand Plan for me got thrown into disarray when my mum read my diary when I was 14. She and my dad made me swear on the bible that I would never so much as kiss another woman; the diaries and copies of Diva and the local LGB youth group got burnt outside.

My mum called the police about the council run youth group because she thought the whole concept was illegal.
All my mum's friends and friends mums were apparently disgusted with me etc.

My brother and his friends all delighted in telling me I was frigid and just needed a good fuck from a bloke (I had experienced sexual abuse from my brother and a couple of his friends a few years before, so that made it doubly worse, I think)

Introducing my family to my v butch gf in my early 20s was terrifying, hilarious and in retrospect they didn't disown me, so again I am grateful for the tolerance shift...

My brother always referred to her as "the man", but he's a nugget anyway.

That's my worst lived experience of lesbophobia, I think? Or some of it, at least.

Facefull . I'm sorry for all the shite you've had to put up with.

Thank you. I'm NC with all my family these days, which makes for a far more peaceful and happier life. I am getting some support with dealing with all the fallout still - I do think my younger experiences had/still have a huge impact in skewing my boundaries and expectations of acceptable and/or appropriate behaviour on various levels - from myself as well as from other people.

One thing Ive found is that my perspective on everything has changed with the progress of time and with more information/hearing about other women's experience - things I assumed happened to everyone actually didn't, and shouldn't have.

"But they didn't ever hit me, so it can't be that bad" was one of the levels I used to set for my bar in bad relationships. These days I look back and there's a horrible amount of sexual coercion/abuse, financial abuse and mental abuse in the worst couple of them. Twenty two year old me was in complete denial that any of that wasn't ok. I probably wouldn't have thought it ok if it had happened to any of my friends though.

Pesky women talking about stuff can only lead to trouble*

*not necessarily for the women talking