Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

[chilling19]

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www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7355c886-1aea-11eb-8493-5b46eb56a071?shareToken=4752a364029a4a557a2ba26a99d985d4

Esther is actually the one doing the scale goating if only she could see what she's been blagged into saying.

Facefull

I’m so sorry facefullofcake sounds like NC is the best thing for you.

I think of it as them not being lucky enough to have me in their lives.

I might not have excelled academically, found a partner, be financially stable or had kids, but I'm not dead yet still going and I've got my own hopes and goals again which are good enough for me - I haven't had those for years until recently.

Thank you all for the space to work out how things interlink - it is so helpful

Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

It's great seeing this thread title at the top of FWR

Women win guarantee. Hurray.

And it's great that Faceful has been able to use all the daft anti women assertions in the thread to help her work things out

Double hurray.

Double hurray.

Indeed.

And it's worth noting exactly what gender proponents require.

All the big chested, long haired, made up people in one space. And all the short haired, muscular, butch people in the other.

Irrespective of sex.

Because reasons.

I think of it as them not being lucky enough to have me in their lives. for sure. I think it is remarkable to hear people’s stories. While I am saddened by your experience, it has shaped you to who you are now (although, if you are like me, you wish sometimes to have had an easier start). And it seems that you have moved on and are doing your own thing and that is often the most important thing.

@NRatched

Good god, the 'flat chested women wouldn't be able to use female areas' is such a ridiculous reach..I don't know whether to laugh at these people, or genuinely fear for their health. Funnily enough, women know that other women are not just walking pair of boobs!

That's not what I said is it. Unless all the women who say they have been challenged (often by women) and already feel uncomfortable using single sex spaces because of it are lying then it is clearly a factor for some women. And were toilets to be more stringently policed on the basis of birth sex, whether socially or legally, then that would likely make things much worse, and for a wider group of people. That's really one reason I oppose it, as well as the arguments over trans safety etc, I think it would turn toilets into sites of enforcing gender conformity. We live under a patriarchy. Lots of people are lesbophobic and homophobic, and indeed transphobic. Lots of people don't like gender nonconformity. To more strictly police toilets would give them a weapon, a weapon they very much want by the way, which is why the religious right fought so hard for bathroom bills.

I note that it's no slam dunk for Biden in North Carolina. Leaning Trump at the moment. Interesting.

@Sexnotgender

I had a lovely friend. 6ft, broad shoulders, square jawline and relatively flat chested. Never mistaken for a man. A very beautiful and striking woman.

It's very kind of you to say so, thank you.

Obviously I'm joking, I'm not really @Sexnotgender's friend. But I am 6 feet tall, and I have passed as a woman, amongst both men and women. I'm not saying it happens that often, especially now I'm older, but it's not uncommon for people to be unsure. People sometimes ask a friend. And whilst most people want to be nice (the bastards I know) there are some people who use gender ambiguity as a reason to attack someone, because they don't like gender noncoforming people, or LGB people or trans people. But the truth is most people aren't paying that much attention to other people and if enough gender signifiers are there they will easily mis-sex someone. So it's no surprise to me that some masculine appreaing women, even if only superfically male appearing, may have had problems. And in some cases lots of problems. I know one woman who is always taken for a man, by everyone, men and women. She's incredibly masculine even when she speaks, and absolutely fine with it but she's was born a woman and identifies as a woman. Her life would be a nightmare under a bathroom bill system, she already gets enough grief.

@Escapeplanning

I note that it's no slam dunk for Biden in North Carolina. Leaning Trump at the moment. Interesting.

No real surprise there, if Trump can't take North Carolina where republicans have won nine out of ten of the last elections then I reckon that's him done. Too close to call elsewhere to say though.

Good job we don't even have bathrooms then.

Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories. Marvelous

The women in the links below call themselves butch lesbians/ stud lesbians. I assume they are the sort of women JJ is worried about.

I know they are all women but there are a few where on appearance only I might read them as men. Once they speak there were 2 possibly 3 I still read as men. Possibly in the flesh it would be obvious they are women.

If a "bathroom bill" were to be strictly enforced I would assume that despite 3 of them having absolutely nothing in their appearance or clothes which signified female (one has longish hair but it's "ageing male hippy" long hair - if anything it adds to her masculine appearance) that they were women. If they weren't women- why would they be there?

www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/13/t-magazine/butch-stud-lesbian.html

www.them.us/story/butch-please/amp

Other than not wearing a tie, and men don't any more either, those women are dressed as I dress most of the time when leaving the house.
Suit or blazer or tuxedo jacket in the evening, shirt or t and lace ups or slip ons.

I'm butch, how marvelous.

And were toilets to be more stringently policed on the basis of birth sex

There you go again jj, making the assumption that 'transwomen' are unpleasant, antisocial people who will demand access to women's spaces even though they know that women don't want them there.

Most decent people wouldn't behave like this. Do you not think men who want to be women are decent people?

As a butch female I will be continuing to police toilets on sex determined at conception. As a foetus will be accompanied by it's mother there's no need for any ultrasound checking in toilets as they qualify under the age 8 and below dispensation.

Ach, dammit, the thread was insightful, interesting and kind there for a moment. I knew it wouldn't last.

Anyway, I am very heartened that we have won this guarantee, and will respond to the consultation. Thanks, lovely women, all.

[quote DidoLamenting]The women in the links below call themselves butch lesbians/ stud lesbians. I assume they are the sort of women JJ is worried about.

I know they are all women but there are a few where on appearance only I might read them as men. Once they speak there were 2 possibly 3 I still read as men. Possibly in the flesh it would be obvious they are women.

If a "bathroom bill" were to be strictly enforced I would assume that despite 3 of them having absolutely nothing in their appearance or clothes which signified female (one has longish hair but it's "ageing male hippy" long hair - if anything it adds to her masculine appearance) that they were women. If they weren't women- why would they be there?

www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/13/t-magazine/butch-stud-lesbian.html

www.them.us/story/butch-please/amp[/quote]
And here lies the problem with bathroom bills. If you wouldn't challenge (or support anyone else challenging) someone in a woman's toilet you thought was a man, then women's toilets based on birth sex are not being more strictly policed. The only way a bathroom bill can work is if people who don't look typical for their birth sex are challenged, either by other users or a security guard or whoever. And most of those people won't see themselves as feminists. Some might be some horrible UKIP security bloke who thinks women are too much like men these days and so uses his new found state backed power to pick on gender nonconforming women. Or someone who hates lesbians and so gets off on making them feel uncomfortable and so demands to see the birth certificate of every vaguely butch women who walks in, as FPFW seem to endorse. I think it would be an authoritarian nightmare.

Of course if it's your positon that if a bathroom bill was introduced then, despite being likely to be hugely unpopular and controversial, everyone would immediately obey the law out of some sense of public duty then I'm genuinely surprised. You strike me as a realist and a pragmatist. We don't live in Trumpton. Any attempt at a bathroom bill would be fiercely fought, largely by women if the trans rights protests I've been on or the bathroom bill struggles in the states are anything to go by. And that fight wouldn't end with the stroke of a legislators pen. That's not what happened in North Carolina and it's not what would happen here.

Women will be guaranteed access to female-only lavatories in public buildings, the government has said.

@Datun

Women will be guaranteed access to female-only lavatories in public buildings, the government has said.

They will. Hurray.

I would think if anyone tried to propose a "bathroom bill" then (aside from the small fact we don't need one with existing U.K. law) there would indeed be a lot of objection - to the word 'bathroom' being used of anything without a bath in it.

(I bloody hate it when a hotel 'bathroom' turns out to only be a shower)

That's not what I said is it.

Er no, that one was not you.

@ErrolTheDragon

I would think if anyone tried to propose a "bathroom bill" then (aside from the small fact we don't need one with existing U.K. law) there would indeed be a lot of objection - to the word 'bathroom' being used of anything without a bath in it.

(I bloody hate it when a hotel 'bathroom' turns out to only be a shower)

What was that again?
Ah, yes. Women will be guaranteed access to female-only lavatories in public buildings, the government has said.
Good.

Shout out to the women whose 'bathroom' experiences have never really involved any confusion over who is female and who is male