Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

[chilling19]

Share token

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7355c886-1aea-11eb-8493-5b46eb56a071?shareToken=4752a364029a4a557a2ba26a99d985d4

@NiceGerbil

JJ you claim that most women and girls in the UK are ok with their facilities being made mixed sex. Including communal changing. In schools.

Evidence please.

FYI most men and boys don't want this either.

By your standards toilets and changing rooms have been mixed sex since they were introduced because that's how long trans people have been using toilets inline with their gender.

Schools seem to be doing a good job of managing trans pupils and ensuring everyone's safety, I see no reason why that won't continue.

Yeah but Hecates probably that's women lying to be mean to men because they're misogynists or something. They could well be supporting USA Christian stuff in America while taking their knickers off in mixed sex changing in the UK THE BASTARDS just want to do the men down see.

Personally it would be better and easier for women not to go out really? I don't understand why any woman would want to move out of her parents home before marrying and moving into a different home with ample and more importantly MIXED SEX bathrooms and toilets! I mean lots of women even take all their clothes off in MIXED SEX CHANGING in their own bedroom so what's app the fuss about? I'll tell you what. Women, who have exerted enormous sexual power over men forever with, you know, their boobs and stuff, making even more ordinary men feel downtrodden by not having their 15yo daughters undress in front of men and maybe have a pillow fight or whatever they do when they're all girly girls nudey together.

Women eh. BASTARDS.

Isn't inclusion about listening to, recognising and meeting all needs? Unfortunately, this does mean listening to and including the females who cannot cope with mixed sex spaces. Even if inconvenient.

In which case let's use this review to lobby for properly funded safe and secure provision with floor to ceiling doors and sinks in cubicles and then everyone can use toilets safely and with dignity.

JJ you silly person.

I am talking about provision which was formally labelled as for women being changed to mix sex. So open to any and all males. While the male facilities stay male only.

That is also what the article is talking about.

You seem obsessed with trans people. This is nothing to do with trans people it's about provision of facilities by the government.

Reading comprehension= try again. You are bimbling on, but are off topic.

The rules are not draconian jj1968 and they worked perfectly well - the ONLY people who should use the FEMALE toilets are those of the FEMALE sex.

You keep on an on about gender stereotypes and yet the people clinging to and enforcing gender stereotypes are trans people.

Women were never asked if they were comfortable with male bodied people, however they present, using their sex segregated toilets or changing rooms. How progressive and inclusive assuming consent is, women weren't asked or considered in this Brave New World because the powers that be were well aware the answer would be NO, find another solution and they were too dismissive of women as a class to do so.

There have been problems, there are problems, you just don't want to accept or hear them.

The minute a survey asks whether women wish to share any of the above facilities with males who still possess their male genitalia the answer is a resounding NO.

None of the women you know may give a shit, which I actually doubt, but every women, man and trans person I know very much gives a shit.

Incidentally what are we going to do with the excluded women who can't use any facilities at all when all services have been refocused to mixed sex for the meeting male needs?

I mean the female services should have been inclusive of all females first and foremost, but now isn't. So what do we do with those women?

Where are the solutions and the kindness and inclusion and diversity and intersectionality for them? Are women's services working when they exclude and no longer meet the needs of all women? What do you suggest here?

I only want to use female-only spaces. I don't mind what gender identity a female has. I don't want to share with any male people, regardless of their self-declared reasons why they should be exempt from women's boundaries.

Female-only. That's the minimum required. Whether the rest is gender-neutral or male-only plus gender-neutral, I don't mind.

As long as there is female (sex)-only for the females who want and need it.

Trans people are quite happy to use toilets inline with their gender as they have always done

But they should be using the toilet that matches their SEX and you know this. I have been in a nightclub toilet with a trans MTF person standing at the sinks watching all the action (actually very boring, women going into the cubicle and then washing their hands) but I did feel that I had gone from enjoying a night out to becoming part of the entertainment for some random bloke who should not have been allowed into the ladies.

Lol JJ off you go then and good luck!

Women already had to fight for provision of female facilities so we could take part in stuff. Sport, university etc.

Happy to pass the baton over.

We can protect what we have and fight to reverse decisions to make eg women's toilets mixed sex.

You can fight for the single cubicles etc. It's a tough one due to cash/ space. My best suggestion is to talk to disability rights groups who have been through this battle (and are still battling).

GOOD LUCK!

And how is it not fundamentally misogynist to prioritise the inclusion and welfare of males over the need for female services to continue meeting the needs of and including females?

Let's just revisit a bit of shared meaning here: misogyny being unfair prejudice against women. Sexism is another mild term that's helpful here in that one sex class is most definitely receiving more favourable treatment and better provision and consideration than the other, while being seen as inherently more deserving and important.

Women were never asked if they were comfortable with male bodied people, however they present, using their sex segregated toilets or changing rooms.

How were women supposed to be asked and by who? In 1930 when the first medical sex change happened? In the 60s and 70s as trans people first emerged? In the 90s when trans people became more public? In 2003 when the GRA was introduced? Or in 2010 when the EA was drawn up? How were trans people supposed to ask and gain consensus from all women? And why did no-one care until a couple of years ago? If this has been such a great problem then why on earth didn't you say anything?

In which case let's use this review to lobby for properly funded safe and secure provision with floor to ceiling doors and sinks in cubicles and then everyone can use toilets safely and with dignity.

As I said earlier: campaign for the addition of all the additional to and different from provision you think would help, I will gladly campaign for and crowd fund for that. But these need to be in addition to and not removing things from women and replacing with something that suits male people better, for no better reason than male people do not want female people to have it.

For obvious reasons.

Brave new world indeed:

Anger over 'naked men' at unisex changing rooms

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-somerset-46862566

The rules are not draconian jj1968 and they worked perfectly well - the ONLY people who should use the FEMALE toilets are those of the FEMALE sex.

Err what rules? When has anyone ever been prosecuted for using a toilet that matches their gender?

Trans people are quite happy to use toilets inline with their gender as they have always done,

For the millionth time - toilets are segregated on the basis of SEX not gender.

Please provide evidence that since the inception of female only toilets male bodied people have been using them.

@MichelleofzeResistance

In which case let's use this review to lobby for properly funded safe and secure provision with floor to ceiling doors and sinks in cubicles and then everyone can use toilets safely and with dignity.

As I said earlier: campaign for the addition of all the additional to and different from provision you think would help, I will gladly campaign for and crowd fund for that. But these need to be in addition to and not removing things from women and replacing with something that suits male people better, for no better reason than male people do not want female people to have it.

For obvious reasons.

Well from the sound of this review it sounds like they want to pretty much get rid of gender neutral toilets. So I guess trans people will continue to use toilets inline with their gender.

Oh ha bloody ha, why didn't women say anything? We weren't damn well told or consulted, that's why, the GRA was presented as a fait accompli without any reference to women at all.

For the millionth time - toilets are segregated on the basis of SEX not gender.

But they are clearly and demonstrably not. Trans people use toilets inline with their gender, they always have, and there is no law preventing it. In fact that there is very likely a law protecting it.

jj why haven’t you answered about those women who have religious requirement for single sex facilities. Bear in mind that many of them will also be BAME. They are hardly a privileged group in society yet they are expected to step aside for people born male.
I thought you fought for the disadvantaged?

How were trans people supposed to ask and gain consensus from all women?

A basic recognition that female people have any skin in the game and some basic respect for them might have helped, but this was the government's job to do.

This comes from males telling other males that transition involved using female spaces - females not being consulted in any way about this, which reflects the sexism involved that females are not sufficiently human or of importance enough to need consulting in this or to be considered to have any relevant needs or feelings or opinions. And you're being extremely disingenuous since you know as well as women do that this has shifted in the very recent past from a few quiet TS people using women's facilities - and no one ever checked how many women were ok with this, or who quietly left an area where they didn't feel safe because of a TS person there - to this wholesale removal of any right to female only spaces and any male at any time.

Women have been fighting to be heard for years, to be allowed any voice, to be considered to have any skin in this game at all. And everything they do say is denied, handwaved away and ignored, by male people continuing to tell them in posts such as your above that even if they have laws to protect their spaces male people will just ignore them because they want what they want and have no interest in how this impacts on female people.

I don't see any morality at all in this. I see a huge battle for female people ahead, and the right to have female only toilets is only the tip of this almighty sexist iceberg we have to address.

@RedDogsBeg

Oh ha bloody ha, why didn't women say anything? We weren't damn well told or consulted, that's why, the GRA was presented as a fait accompli without any reference to women at all.

The GRA was introduced in exactly the same way every other piece of legislation is, with public debate and votes in the House of Common as well as abundant media coverage. What did you expect to happen, your MP to come round your house and ask permission?

And again the repetition: it doesn't matter what female people say, or how they point out their needs: male people will do what they want and female people can't stop them.

This is why sex based protections are needed, and why they need strengthening. Because of this fundamental utter disrespect for women and the feelings, needs and rights of women.

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

jj why haven’t you answered about those women who have religious requirement for single sex facilities. Bear in mind that many of them will also be BAME. They are hardly a privileged group in society yet they are expected to step aside for people born male. I thought you fought for the disadvantaged?

I've yet to see any representatives of those groups give their opinions on this so I wouldn't presume to speak for them. However people using toilets inline with their gender is pretty much normal practice in every comparable country and I have yet to see any objections from BAME groups raised. New York has had specific laws permitting trans inclusion in toilets for a decade, are you aware of any objections of this type there?

The GRA was introduced in exactly the same way every other piece of legislation is, with public debate and votes in the House of Common as well as abundant media coverage. What did you expect to happen, your MP to come round your house and ask permission?

No it fucking wasn't given abundant media coverage, no consideration whatsoever was given to females. Furthermore the aim of the legislation is a far cry from the shit show we have now. There were always going to consequences to it and females were always going to bear the brunt of it.

I don’t care about any man’s gender identity - they are not to use the women’s, because they are not women.

The fact that a small, vocal and often highly aggressive minority are happy to utterly disregard the needs, privacy, dignity and safety of women and girls is a damming indictment on them.

Toilets are sex segregated - of which there are two - males and females.

My DDs father/uncles etc can’t go into the toilet with them - with whom they are perfectly safe - so why should any other man - especially strangers - on that man’s say so??