Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

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www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7355c886-1aea-11eb-8493-5b46eb56a071?shareToken=4752a364029a4a557a2ba26a99d985d4

However people using toilets inline with their gender is pretty much normal practice in every comparable country

No it isn't.

and you are clearly selectively deaf, many representatives of disabled, religious and BAME women have spoken out about their need for single SEX facilities.

The GRA was introduced in exactly the same way every other piece of legislation is, with public debate and votes in the House of Common as well as abundant media coverage. What did you expect to happen, your MP to come round your house and ask permission?

Was there 'abundant media coverage'? I seem to remember, on the contrary, a TRA boasting that they'd managed to sneak this through with barely any press coverage. If you have evidence to the contrary, perhaps you could post some links.

And it's important to remember that the GRA was introduced because of homophobia. The UK Government could have complied with the ECtHR ruling (which led to the GRA) by introducing same sex marriage. When this was ruled out due to too many MPs being homophobic, a legal fiction of changing sex had to be introduced instead.

@RedDogsBeg

The GRA was introduced in exactly the same way every other piece of legislation is, with public debate and votes in the House of Common as well as abundant media coverage. What did you expect to happen, your MP to come round your house and ask permission?

No it fucking wasn't given abundant media coverage, no consideration whatsoever was given to females. Furthermore the aim of the legislation is a far cry from the shit show we have now. There were always going to consequences to it and females were always going to bear the brunt of it.

There was considerable media coverage actually mostly because some on the right saw it as a means of legitimising what they believed were same sex marriages.

Jesus

A sexist man being sexist all over the feminism board

Plus ca change eh?

Except this one’s gender fluid so he gets to feel extra smug while he’s doing it

And it's important to remember that the GRA was introduced because of homophobia.

The marriage situation was part of it, but not all of it. And it would have happened anyway. Pretty much every democracy on the planet now has laws which allows trans people official recognition of their gender.

@jj1968

Women were never asked if they were comfortable with male bodied people, however they present, using their sex segregated toilets or changing rooms.

How were women supposed to be asked and by who? In 1930 when the first medical sex change happened? In the 60s and 70s as trans people first emerged? In the 90s when trans people became more public? In 2003 when the GRA was introduced? Or in 2010 when the EA was drawn up? How were trans people supposed to ask and gain consensus from all women? And why did no-one care until a couple of years ago? If this has been such a great problem then why on earth didn't you say anything?

Many women have been speaking up about this for more than a couple of years, but more started to pay attention in 2018 with the GRA reform consultations.

In 2003, this was off the radar of most people, and if you look at the Hansard transcripts, you will see that at most 5,000 people were expected to apply for a GRC, so even those people who were paying attention would have thought that they were very unlikely to encounter such a person. The new estimates of about 500,000 people being trans and potentially able to falsify their birth record is a completely different matter.

The new phenomenon of large numbers of teenage girls identifying as transgender has also made people more aware. This has really only been happening for the last five years or so.

I'm sure you know all this already though.

jj1968
You are aware that it is Parliament that makes legislation not the courts. It will be the government that determines the guidance in the end.

I think Marsha Dr Cordova's question is significant 'what steps she is taking to help ensure that (a) her Department, (b) the Equality and Human Rights Commission and (c) other public bodies produce statutory guidance on the provision of single-sex exemptions consistent with the Equality Act 2010.'

Single SEX, see, not gender. This is what happens to people who take a mile when they've been generously given an inch.

Anyway back to the review I'd say it looks like another attempt at a fait accompli that actually won't change anything at all. The GEO have clearly given the nod that trans people can use toilets and changing rooms inline with their gender (and in fact were even prepared to go to court against Anne Sinott to fight it). This review will draw crowd pleasing headlines from the right wing press who don;t like mixed sex toilets, trans people will keep doing as they alwayshaveo, and given the only stated endpoint of this review is a possible change in building regs then things will pretty much stay as they are. Seems to be the current strategy on trans rights, pretend to give everyone what they ask for and in practical terms change nothing.

There was considerable media coverage actually mostly because some on the right saw it as a means of legitimising what they believed were same sex marriages.

Not according to TRA Christine Burns of Press for Change:

Much of their campaigning remained on the quiet. The passage of the 2004 law to give trans people legal status was "remarkable," says Burns, because "the government was able to pass an entire act in parliament without anyone throwing a fit in the press".

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

official recognition of their gender.

Gender is not the same as sex

Very few people apply or have applied for a GRC, which is the 'official recognition' of their gender as you put it.

trans people can use toilets and changing rooms inline with their gender

You keep saying this jj. When you say 'their gender', can you explain exactly what you mean? I know you don't mean sex. And how can we tell the difference between a man with a feminine gender and a man with a masculine gender?

JJ you say that trans people have been using the toilets in line with their gender for years but as I understand it, there seems to be a huge increase in the amount of trans people now so could it be that before it might have been the just the occasional person being discreet whereas now it's more prevalent? Also with transwomen the likes of Alex Drummond it's now much more noticeable?

@jj1968

Anyway back to the review I'd say it looks like another attempt at a fait accompli that actually won't change anything at all. The GEO have clearly given the nod that trans people can use toilets and changing rooms inline with their gender (and in fact were even prepared to go to court against Anne Sinott to fight it). This review will draw crowd pleasing headlines from the right wing press who don;t like mixed sex toilets, trans people will keep doing as they alwayshaveo, and given the only stated endpoint of this review is a possible change in building regs then things will pretty much stay as they are. Seems to be the current strategy on trans rights, pretend to give everyone what they ask for and in practical terms change nothing.

The Anne Sinnot case is still live.

It is not only the right wing press who don't like mixed sex toilets, what a stupid thing to say.

Nice to hear you say that women's boundaries, safety, dignity and privacy will be ignored.

A change in building regulations and provision and explicit rules on who goes where when using toilets should suit everyone don't you think.

Here you go jj1968 an answer from the Government:

The government believes that the protection of single-sex spaces, as provided for in the Equality Act, is important. The Act makes clear that providers have the right to restrict the use of spaces on the basis of sex, and exclude transgender people, with or without a Gender Recognition Certificate, if this is justified.

The right to restrict the use of spaces on the basis of SEX not gender whether or not the person has a GRC, and before you start arguing about justification that's pretty explicit in the EA as well, the justification that other users expect to only share that space with members of their own sex is justification enough.

@OldCrone

trans people can use toilets and changing rooms inline with their gender

You keep saying this jj. When you say 'their gender', can you explain exactly what you mean? I know you don't mean sex. And how can we tell the difference between a man with a feminine gender and a man with a masculine gender?

Ask them.

Women and our pesky boundaries. - always up for a challenge by some.

A change in building regulations and provision and explicit rules on who goes where when using toilets should suit everyone don't you think

A change in building regs will take decades to filter through before any noticeable widespread change happens. Who knows what medical advances will occur in that time? It could be that near fully reproductive sex changes emerge from stem cell technologies. I suspect by the time the upcoming generation are old enough to be panicking about kids today this whole conflict will seem somewhat archaic.

There are no explicit rules on who goes where and the government has been quite clear they have no plans to change this whilst also repeatedly assuring trans people that in most cases they can use spaces inline with their gender. So I expect that's what will continue to happen.

the justification that other users expect to only share that space with members of their own sex is justification enough.

Well it's clearly not, because the courts have found otherwise. And even then it's still voluntary, no business is going to waste money employing bathroom cops when they don't have to because they know most of their customers don't care.

Here’s the link to Dave Thompson’s Twitter account twitter.com/davethompsoncc?s=21

As well as WM Police where I’ve let them know my thoughts.

twitter.com/wmpolice?s=21

But yeah as someone who suffered domestic abuse / stalking from a family member Im estranged from, where I’d been attacked, the Police just look bored to be there when I called them. They kept looking at each other, rolling their eyes. Bearing in mind this man had sprained by ankle & was screaming down the phone trying to other relatives trying to stalk me AFTER they’d assaulted me.

There are no explicit rules on who goes where and the government has been quite clear they have no plans to change this whilst also repeatedly assuring trans people that in most cases they can use spaces inline with their gender.

See my post above.

Who knows what medical advances will occur in that time? It could be that near fully reproductive sex changes emerge from stem cell technologies.

and aliens will take over Planet Earth.

^ignore, was meant for Police saying DV isn’t a real crime thread

@jj1968

the justification that other users expect to only share that space with members of their own sex is justification enough.

Well it's clearly not, because the courts have found otherwise. And even then it's still voluntary, no business is going to waste money employing bathroom cops when they don't have to because they know most of their customers don't care.

Yeah you keep telling yourself that.

There is no need for bathroom cops, what a ridiculous suggestion. Businesses are becoming increasingly aware that most of their customers do care and if they want to remain in business, particularly now, they will do what their customers want.

here speaks someone who's never done a quick risk assessment on finding himself alone with a stranger

male privilege eh? and doesn't even know he has it

Who knows what medical advances will occur in that time? It could be that near fully reproductive sex changes emerge from stem cell technologies

jesus

getting desperate now. but keep up the lunacy, it's spicing up my saturday tea time while i wait for boris to make a fucking appearance

and aliens will take over Planet Earth.

Stem cell and other genetic treatments will have a huge impact on trans healthcare that much is near certain. How far they will be able to go, and how quickly is uncertain, but it's not science fiction to suggest that things could look very different in 50 years or so, or even less.