Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

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www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7355c886-1aea-11eb-8493-5b46eb56a071?shareToken=4752a364029a4a557a2ba26a99d985d4

@Winesalot

And wheelchairs users generally use accessible toilets, for precisely the reasons you mention, although I'm sure you knew that really..

And you must live in an area well catered for. But do keep on, as I say. It shows your lack of knowledge and of empathy.

Well unfortunately if there is no accessible toilet then the person I care for is unable to go due to the nature of her disability. And yes it's shit that provision can be so poor.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4065955-Toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence-Government-Consultation

Just linking another thread on this same topic

Well unfortunately if there is no accessible toilet then the person I care for is unable to go due to the nature of her disability. And yes it's shit that provision can be so poor.

An option my elderly mum did not have. She had to be out. But thanks for admitting you have never had to deal with that situation. Pity you are so quick to deny it actually happens. But, it is what we have come to expect.

It shows your lack of knowledge and of empathy.

Bit rich when your response to Winesalot's detailed post about why she believes single sex toilets are important was 'are you from the 1950s?' It was a post that I'm sure will have resonated with many women.

@HecatesCats

It shows your lack of knowledge and of empathy.

Bit rich when your response to Winesalot's detailed post about why she believes single sex toilets are important was 'are you from the 1950s?' It was a post that I'm sure will have resonated with many women.

I responded to her archaic assumption that I had no experience looking after small children because I was born male.

Don’t worry Hecates, remember jj believes us all to be privileged middle class women who would have no experience that would negate jj’s idea that males should have full access to females toilets because all we do there is pee.

It is so laughably ignorant. Maybe jj is from the 1950s.

I responded to her archaic assumption that I had no experience looking after small children because I was born male.

No I responded to your lack of knowledge that women do this when they need to use the toilet. My own husband is proof enough that males take brilliant care of children of all ages. But even he knows that most of the time when I was out without access to parents rooms, I had to do this. Why didn’t you know women needed to do this?

@MichelleofzeResistance

I think it's the third time I've mentioned this on the thread: no one here disagrees for a moment that gender neutral facilities would be a great idea for many reasons. Just in addition to existing facilities.

The point of disagreement is the insistence that female only facilities must be removed from all females. That's the bit that's the problem.

Insisting that women and girls have no right to boundaries appears to be a thing for some people. Very worrying.

Yes, that's what looking after small children means. And trying to change a child in the men's which often had no changing facilities could be very difficult, one reason why toilet design needs to be rethought and gender neutral options are a good idea.

Could we actually be getting there.

Toilet redesign - yes
More toilet provision - yes
Female only toilets - yes
Male only toilets - yes
Accessible toilets - yes
Extra Toilet Provision call it gender neutral or whatever you like - yes

That list looks fine to me RedDog.

Obviously easier to accommodate in new larger buildings, but definitely a good plan. Anyone got sensible objections?

I think that would be great Red, but I don't think it would stop the demands for access to the female facilities. Those demands have other motivations including validation and, as has become increasingly clear, envy.

Sounds good RedDog

Maybe some more baby changing facilities in Men’s toilets too where there is none too.

All the above to be separate and not take away from one for the other and facilities to be used only by those they are applicable to, i.e., no men however they present or feel to use the female toilets.

Maybe some more baby changing facilities in Men’s toilets too where there is none too. And in any mixed sex toilets too.

@HecatesCats

I think that would be great Red, but I don't think it would stop the demands for access to the female facilities. Those demands have other motivations including validation and, as has become increasingly clear, envy.

I know, I want to hear them finally admit it.

Maybe some more baby changing facilities in Men’s toilets too where there is none too. And in any mixed sex toilets too

Totally agree that would be truly progressive and inclusive.

@RedDogsBeg

Yes, that's what looking after small children means. And trying to change a child in the men's which often had no changing facilities could be very difficult, one reason why toilet design needs to be rethought and gender neutral options are a good idea.

Could we actually be getting there.

Toilet redesign - yes
More toilet provision - yes
Female only toilets - yes
Male only toilets - yes
Accessible toilets - yes
Extra Toilet Provision call it gender neutral or whatever you like - yes

And presumably gender cops on the door demanding to see birth certificates of any woman who doesn't look sufficiently feminine.

I know, I want to hear them finally admit it.

I'd be interested to hear what the arguments are against your very sensible suggestions. It seems perfectly reasonable to have better designed men's, gender neutral and women's facilities the latter reserved for females.

And presumably gender cops on the door demanding to see birth certificates of any woman who doesn't look sufficiently feminine

You are obsessed with 'gender cops' whatever the hell they are, there is no need, we managed perfectly well for donkeys years without them.

Rather than needing ‘gender cops’ what is actually needed is respect that males should not be in the women’s toilets.

We have given you so many reasons why, but like always, you cannot acknowledge that women’s needs are very different to ‘just wanting to pee’ that we are told transwomen’s needs are.

We are all for these mixed sex toilets in addition to women’s Single sex provision. No one has argued that there should not be mixed sex as well as women’s at all.

No 'gender cops' required, as gender is irrelevant. Sex is usually obvious, & more importantly, most people are happy to abide by nice clear rules, like using the toilets EITHER designated for their own sex OR if for whatever reason (personal identity, caring for an opposite sex adult or child) to use appropriate mixed sex facilities.

& where such useful mixed sex spaces don't exist, we can all agree they should be lobbied for, to go alongside the single sex provision that is already there.

This isn't as difficult as you seem to want to make it, jj.

@RedDogsBeg

And presumably gender cops on the door demanding to see birth certificates of any woman who doesn't look sufficiently feminine

You are obsessed with 'gender cops' whatever the hell they are, there is no need, we managed perfectly well for donkeys years without them.

Trans women have been using women's toilets for donkeys years. If you want that to change, then how else do you intend to police it?

And I would still like to know why you believe I am stuck in the 1950s (not that it would be a problem to have been born then, but I was not).

Was it the reluctance to be in a state of undress in a place where men might be ( for very real reasons) or the stroller in the doorway or the fact that not every where has actually got disabled access toilets (not that you have ever had to navigate the situation with an elderly wheelchair bound woman anyway as you then admitted, did I get that right)?

@CorvusPurpureus

No 'gender cops' required, as gender is irrelevant. Sex is usually obvious, & more importantly, most people are happy to abide by nice clear rules, like using the toilets EITHER designated for their own sex OR if for whatever reason (personal identity, caring for an opposite sex adult or child) to use appropriate mixed sex facilities.

& where such useful mixed sex spaces don't exist, we can all agree they should be lobbied for, to go alongside the single sex provision that is already there.

This isn't as difficult as you seem to want to make it, jj.

There are probably around 50,000 transitioned trans women, and not far off a similar number of trans men. Some will have transitioned decades ago and been using toilets inline with their gender all that time. Do you honestly think they are all going to start using the opposite toilet when expert legal opinion says they have the right to use toilets inline with their gender? How is this going to happen with no change in the law? And if the law changes then how is it going to be policed?

@Winesalot

And I would still like to know why you believe I am stuck in the 1950s (not that it would be a problem to have been born then, but I was not).

Was it the reluctance to be in a state of undress in a place where men might be ( for very real reasons) or the stroller in the doorway or the fact that not every where has actually got disabled access toilets (not that you have ever had to navigate the situation with an elderly wheelchair bound woman anyway as you then admitted, did I get that right)?

No I made it very clear it was your assumption that someone born male had no experience of looking after young children.