Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

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www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7355c886-1aea-11eb-8493-5b46eb56a071?shareToken=4752a364029a4a557a2ba26a99d985d4

But there's no real reason they'd have to, jj, if they joined forces to campaign for non sex segregated spaces, which, as you've seen on this thread, feminists will happily support.

Your numbers seem to fluctuate a heck of a lot, though, & bear no resemblance to actual GRC statistics, so I'm not sure the problem is really as acute as you suggest.

Either there's so few trans people with toilet access issues that we shouldn't be worrying about them, or there's so many that they're a powerful lobbying force that we can't be allowed to think we can argue with, depending on the spurious argument you are most recently making. It's risible.

All this stuff about gender cops really proves the point.
If transwomen insist on forcing unwilling women to share their sex specific space with them, when they have access to gender neutral toilets, doesn't that indidicate a deep contempt for women rather than an affinity with them. Do they really need to be policed to stop them abusing women's rights?

Either there's so few trans people with toilet access issues that we shouldn't be worrying about them, or there's so many that they're a powerful lobbying force that we can't be allowed to think we can argue with, depending on the spurious argument you are most recently making. It's risible.

We don't decide that just because something doesn't affect many people we shouldn't worry about them. That would be a truly shit society.

And I'm not making any claims about a lobbying force. I'm pointing out that tens of thousands of trans people use toilets inline with their gender, many have done for decades and the government seems to support this as does the Equality Act. So without any change in the law and no effort to police toilet entry then how do you expect this to change?

I hope all lurkers take note - no matter how many sensible alternatives to the purported 'problems' presented, the answer to women trying to maintain boundaries always boils down to "And how are you going to stop me?"

Dear lurkers, please, if you would understand what a male bodied person saying that in any other context means, don't be fooled into thinking it means anything else here.

No I made it very clear it was your assumption that someone born male had no experience of looking after young children.

good thing then that I did not make that assumption and was talking about women’s use of the toilets.

Nothing about the way certain posters interact with women on FWR suggests that they have an affinity with the female experience. This is all very circular, but what then do they have an affinity with?

@Imnobody4

All this stuff about gender cops really proves the point. If transwomen insist on forcing unwilling women to share their sex specific space with them, when they have access to gender neutral toilets, doesn't that indidicate a deep contempt for women rather than an affinity with them. Do they really need to be policed to stop them abusing women's rights?

But trans people don't usually have access to gender neutral toilets and in fact this review shows the government appears to want to reduce gender neutral provision.

And even if gender neutral toilets were introduced then it doesn't solve the safety problem because trans women will be expected to use the same toilets as the men who rape and sexually abuse trans women at the same rate they do other women. So imagine many trans people would continue to use toilets inline with their gender unless the law is changed somehow.

But we aren't saying that we shouldn't worry about an issue that only affects a small number of people.

We are saying that we'd support them wholeheartedly to find a solution.

But you don't want a solution that doesn't take away single sex spaces from women.

So we are at an impasse. Which you seem to frame as 'male people who want your spaces are going to take them, & you can't stop them'.

It's hardly how to win support, is it?

@FloralBunting

I hope all lurkers take note - no matter how many sensible alternatives to the purported 'problems' presented, the answer to women trying to maintain boundaries always boils down to "And how are you going to stop me?"

Dear lurkers, please, if you would understand what a male bodied person saying that in any other context means, don't be fooled into thinking it means anything else here.

I'm not saying how are you going to stop me. I'm saying politics is a little more complicated then a bunch of people deciding that something trans women have done for decades is now abusive and so expect them en masse to put their safety and dignity at risk. I just can't see how that is going to happen, espcially because the number of people who object to trans inclusive toilet policies appear to be pretty tiny.

This has just played out across the US. Thousands of women came out in support of trans women. Where it was put to a vote bathroom bills lost. When one was finally implemented in just one state it was a disaster. So how on earth do you think this change is going to happen?

Ok, now I'm really confused.

You've been arguing for gender neutral facilities all through the thread, but now you say they're too dangerous for TW? That would probably make them too dangerous for females too, wouldn't it?

And yes, yes, a reminder again of your opinion that some male people will just invade female spaces without caring about females in any way and female people can't stop them. That's pretty established now, it's been thoroughly repeated.

@CorvusPurpureus

But we aren't saying that we shouldn't worry about an issue that only affects a small number of people.

We are saying that we'd support them wholeheartedly to find a solution.

But you don't want a solution that doesn't take away single sex spaces from women.

So we are at an impasse. Which you seem to frame as 'male people who want your spaces are going to take them, & you can't stop them'.

It's hardly how to win support, is it?

The impassse is that you seem to think trans women currently use the mens and have just started demanding access to the womens. Thats just not true. You are asking thousands of people to put themselves at risk and change something they have spent almost a lifetime doing in some cases and which the government just confirmed they supported people doing. And there are no gender neutral alternatives yet in most cases. So this isn't an abstract thing for a 60 year old trans women whose being using womens toilets half her life and needs to go to the toilet now, not in a few decades when a campaign for gender neutral toilets is won.

jj, I'm not addressing you. I have no reason to assume good faith or understanding about women on your part from your previous postings, and I am not here to engage in the futile exercise of trying to convince you that female people's boundaries matter. Your position is clear enough. I am content to signpost certain things for the benefit of women.

Please, continue to express yourself freely. Don't feel you need to direct it to me.

And even if gender neutral toilets were introduced then it doesn't solve the safety problem because trans women will be expected to use the same toilets as the men who rape and sexually abuse trans women at the same rate they do other women. So imagine many trans people would continue to use toilets inline with their gender unless the law is changed somehow.

But you were a big fan of lovely inclusive gender neutral toilets upthread, right? But ok.

So now you don't want them because nasty men will go into them to abuse transwomen.

So you think transwomen should use women's toilets, whether women like it or not.

How, in that case, do you keep the nasty men who want to abuse transwomen out?

Looks like you might need those mythical gender cops, right? The ones women don't need in sex segregated spaces?

I don't think it's an abstract thing for the females who can't share mixed sex facilities either.

@MichelleofzeResistance

Ok, now I'm really confused.

You've been arguing for gender neutral facilities all through the thread, but now you say they're too dangerous for TW? That would probably make them too dangerous for females too, wouldn't it?

And yes, yes, a reminder again of your opinion that some male people will just invade female spaces without caring about females in any way and female people can't stop them. That's pretty established now, it's been thoroughly repeated.

I support increased gender neutral spaces for all kind of reasons. But I do not think they address the safety concerns of trans women and I think any attempt to try and force trans people to use them whether legally or socially, would make life a nightmare for all gender non-conforming people.

@CorvusPurpureus

And even if gender neutral toilets were introduced then it doesn't solve the safety problem because trans women will be expected to use the same toilets as the men who rape and sexually abuse trans women at the same rate they do other women. So imagine many trans people would continue to use toilets inline with their gender unless the law is changed somehow.

But you were a big fan of lovely inclusive gender neutral toilets upthread, right? But ok.

So now you don't want them because nasty men will go into them to abuse transwomen.

So you think transwomen should use women's toilets, whether women like it or not.

How, in that case, do you keep the nasty men who want to abuse transwomen out?

Looks like you might need those mythical gender cops, right? The ones women don't need in sex segregated spaces?

How, in that case, do you keep the nasty men who want to abuse transwomen out?

Looks like you might need those mythical gender cops, right? The ones women don't need in sex segregated spaces?

Luckily we have a wealth of data both from the UK and every comparable country which have had trans inclusive toilets policies for decades that these have not led to increased risks for women.

@MichelleofzeResistance

I don't think it's an abstract thing for the females who can't share mixed sex facilities either.

Well, quite. & 5 years ago, I'd have shrugged & let that 60yo transwoman crack on.

You chaps over-reached, which is what exposed that frankly, it was a damn stupid idea in the first place.

Tackle male violence against non-conforming males. Campaign for unisex loos.

But you can't have ours. We are saying NO.

& the more you say TOUGH SHIT, the more you reveal about where you're coming from. We get it.

So gender neutral facilities for all would be too dangerous for TW, but making the women's single sex facilities mixed sex (effectively gender neutral) is not too dangerous? And what about the nightmare of trying to force female people to give up their privacy, dignity, right to any space away from males?

Again this really boils down to not wanting to permit any space to females that they are allowed to have as female only, doesn't it?

trans women will be expected to use the same toilets as the men who rape and sexually abuse trans women at the same rate they do other women.

Thanks for acknowledging women are at risk of rape and abuse from males. As we all know this risk includes males who identify as transwomen. (Study and stats widely shared). Thus you must understand very clearly why we don't want males in our single sex spaces.

I'm saying politics is a little more complicated then a bunch of people deciding that something trans women have done for decades is now abusive and so expect them en masse to put their safety and dignity at risk.
You need to take this up with the people who have campaigned and argued to change the goal posts by fiat rather than respectful discussion. Self ID and the behaviour of TRAs changes everything. Those who show contempt for others should be very careful about demanding it for themselves, or taking what they want by force.

Cubicles in the men’s?

Let’s not also forget that the statistics show that transwomen continue to commit violent acts at a rate very similar to all males.

So, is your answer that women should just shut up and let them into our toilets because they have the similar risk of attack that we women have with males entering our toilets. That’s your answer? To ignore the risks to females over the risk to transwomen?

Why not join the campaign for better configuration of services for transwomen while leaving female single sex provision for women.

And campaign that all males then respect that boundary regardless of how they identify.

You keep coming back to ‘women, just shut up, no one is going to stop using the women’s toilets if they feel like they are women’.

GRC/time served/post surgery or not, I do not wish to share toilets with Karen Jones.

have not led to increased risks for women

can I suggest the 'this never happens' thread? And the results from Target about the increase in voyeuristic crime when they permitted self ID into women's changing rooms? And the assault on the little girl in a toilet in Scotland? And the UK's own statistics on 90% of assaults on women happening in mixed sex spaces?

I'm sure you'll have reasons why none of this is any more important than the voices and shared experiences and feelings of women here trying to tell you why this is a problem for women, but women are actually equally human and answers have to be found that work for women too.

Removing all female only facilities from females is not inclusive, or kind, and will exclude some females from any facilities. This cannot be an acceptable solution.

@Winesalot

Let’s not also forget that the statistics show that transwomen continue to commit violent acts at a rate very similar to all males.

So, is your answer that women should just shut up and let them into our toilets because they have the similar risk of attack that we women have with males entering our toilets. That’s your answer? To ignore the risks to females over the risk to transwomen?

Why not join the campaign for better configuration of services for transwomen while leaving female single sex provision for women.

And campaign that all males then respect that boundary regardless of how they identify.

You keep coming back to ‘women, just shut up, no one is going to stop using the women’s toilets if they feel like they are women’.

Let’s not also forget that the statistics show that transwomen continue to commit violent acts at a rate very similar to all males.

There are no statistics that show that as I'm sure you know. There is one study, based on decades old data and about four crimes in which the data doesn't even distinguish whether it is talking about trans women or trans men. And that's because the study was not intended to make a comparison of the crime rates of men vs trans women but was looking into the long term effects of transition.