Toilet provision for men and women: call for evidence - Government Consultation

[stumbledin]

Not sure of the closing date for this but more details at www.gov.uk/government/consultations/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence

" ... The government wants to ensure dignity and respect for all. The Equality Act provides that sex, age, disability and gender reassignment are protected characteristics. This does not mean that gender-specific toilets should be replaced with gender-neutral toilets. But there should be balanced consideration of how the needs of all those with protected characteristics should be considered, based on the mix of the population and customer demand.

As part of this review, the merits of any best practice guidance on the provision of a gender-neutral toilet, as part of a wider balanced mix of gender-specific male and female toilets – where space allows – will be considered, alongside the interaction with the necessary provision of access to disabled toilets.

These considerations also include provision for older people, and for parents with very young children who need changing facilities. ... "

[Shedbuilder]

Great. The Tories have their ears to the ground, don't they? They can spot a vote-winner when they see it. And still Labour doesn't get it.

[Imnobody4]

Butterer
The Government is clear that single sex provision means individuals with GRA can be excluded. In the text of this consultation the word gender has crept in, I suspect this is down to who has written the text.

'The government’s position is also of the view that there needs to be proper provision of gender-specific toilets for both men and women, with a clear steer in building standards guidance.

In recent years, there has been a trend towards the removal of well-established male-only/female-only spaces when premises are built or refurbished, and they have often been replaced with gender-neutral toilets. This places women at a significant disadvantage. While men can then use both cubicles and urinals, women can only use the former, and women also need safe spaces given their particular health and sanitary needs (for example, women who are menstruating, pregnant or at menopause, may need to use the toilet more often).

Women are also likely to feel less comfortable using mixed sex facilities, and require more space.'

[borntobequiet]

Well I sent this, for what it’s worth:


Good morning

It’s absolutely necessary to have single sex toilet (and changing) facilities for women, not accessible to any male bodied person, in order to protect the privacy and safety of women and girls.

From my own experience:

In my teenage years my periods were unpredictable and heavy. It was embarrassing enough dealing with sanitary protection, washing bloody hands and occasionally underwear even in the company of women. I would have been mortified to have a male person in the facility with me.

As the mother of newborns I had to deal with issues of post birth bleeding and breastfeeding, both of which made me reliant on public toilets. Without private female only spaces available, I doubt I’d have left the house.

As the mother of small children, one in a pushchair, I often had to use public toilets with the door wedged open so as to properly look after the children. This would have been very difficult if the toilets were accessible to males, and if one came in. On the other hand, I would have been confident to ask a natal female to assist me (and did so on more than one occasion).

After surgery for early stage cervical cancer, I bled incessantly for two months and was in pain and distress. I often felt dizzy and faint and toilets were a refuge for me. My discomfort would have been worsened if I didn’t have the assurance of private spaces and potentially help from other natal females, whom I felt I could trust.

Finally, menopause brought unpredictable, very heavy periods with blood clots and gushing. I could soak through a super plus tampon and a heavy duty towel in less than an hour, frequently bloodying clothes and hands. A change of clothing was often necessary. How difficult and demeaning it would have been to have to deal with this with males in the toilets.

I have only focused on toilets in this email but much of what I have said applies to changing facilities (eg in gyms) as well.

Just about every other woman I know, who has given this any thought, agrees with me.

Sincerely

[highame]

This seems to be a technical review, so I'm not sure most of us have that expertise. I would happily give an opinion but is that what is being requested. They certainly seem to already know what the issues are.

[NonnyMouse1337]

Thanks for creating a thread on this.

[borntobequiet]

I have no idea what a technical review is and they haven’t thought it necessary to explain (why not?). So I thought I’d give my opinion anyway.

[Aesopfable]

The government’s position is also of the view that there needs to be proper provision of gender-specific toilets for both men and women, with a clear steer in building standards guidance.

I think we need to challenge this - it is sex-specific toilets that are needed, gender-specific means mixed sex.

[stumbledin]

I cant find a definition of "technical review" but they do say this:

" ... As part of this review, the merits of any best practice guidance on the provision of a gender-neutral toilet, as part of a wider balanced mix of gender-specific male and female toilets – where space allows – will be considered, alongside the interaction with the necessary provision of access to disabled toilets.

These considerations also include provision for older people, and for parents with very young children who need changing facilities. ... "

So would have thought users should set out the needs to be met, and then those with the building expertise would look into how to provide it eg not having single sex toilets that lead out of a shared hand washing space or ... ?

And if they see a lot of women have concerns hopefully it will make they think more about this. Like why do so many public buildings that do have single sex toilets never allow for the fact that men take less time and so there should be more women's toilets?!

[ChattyLion]

Just for completeness there is also another thread on this review: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4065521-women-win-guarantee-over-female-only-public-lavatories-the-times?pg=5

That’s great that you responded born. I’m going to respond too- it’s open to everyone to do so- their bumf says anyone interested is welcome to email them.

I will respond because IMO gender neutral toilets can’t and shouldn’t replace single sex women’s toilets- yet we know this is happening a lot. And often in schools and workplaces where you can’t easily find any alternative toilets. Not that women and girls should have to.

As other posters have said, this review doesn’t look at the issue of men being in women’s toilets. But at least it seems to start out from the basic principle of women having separate needs and that it is right for public toilet provision to meet those needs. Which is something the genderists would deny, even if they ever gave women having any needs two seconds of thought..

If enough of us respond on this pointing out other important ways that women can be deterred from using otherwise good facilities intended for them to use; then the reviewers might be able to recommend that other areas of government can pick up on those other specific points.

[OhHolyJesus]

I won't link because they live off clicks but Pink News have picked this up and therefore there will be many response saying they are for mixed sex toilets.

I think we should share around and encourage as many responses as possible to counter theirs.

[stumbledin]

I started a new thread as clearly women haven't won the right to women only toilets.

It will be up to those arguing for them that it makes single toilets something that should be protected under the EA!

To date this hasn't happened.

Also important that those on FWR know there is a review happening, so would help if all comments were in the same place under a heading that directly relates to the comments.

Concealing an issue under a misleading heading isn't that helpful.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

I went to that site, but couldn't make out how they want to collect evidence. It says "Technical comments can be submitted to [email protected]" -- does that mean all comments? Why 'technical'? I was expecting some sort of questionnaire.

[OfInvention]

The government review of toilet provision for men and women : this consultation closes on 29th January 2021.
To avoid any confusion: The Equality Act 2010 makes it very clear that it refers to sex as a protected characteristic. I quote:
"Sex - Legal Definition:
Part 2 (Equality Concepts), Chapter 1 (Protected Characteristics), Section 11
In relation to the protected characteristic of sex –
(a) A reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a man or a woman
Explanation:
Sex is a protected characteristic and refers to a male or female of any age. In relation to a group of people it refers to either men and/or boys, or women and/or girls.

A comparator for the purposes of showing sex discrimination will be a person of the opposite sex. Sex does not include gender reassignment or sexual orientation."

So women and girls are legally entitled to have separate toilets. Anybody who says otherwise is simply not sticking to the principles set out in the Equality Act. In my opinion, if any organisation fails to provide separate toilet facilities for women, they are breaking the law.
Please make your views known to the government.
Technical issues can also be highlighted in response to this review.

[stumbledin]

bump

[OfInvention]

The closing date for this consultation is 11.45 pm on 29 January 2021. As I have been campaigning for improvements in publicly-accessible toilets since 1985, on a strictly voluntary basis, I have some "expert" knowledge with regard to the real needs of women and all other users I have already sent in my detailed response to the call for evidence.
In the Government press release I have read, it states "The review will look to gather views from all those interested as well as calling on the technical knowledge of industry experts".
I think it is very important that women's views are given proper consideration, as the insufficient provision of women-only toilets has such a negative effect on our health, social and work activities, and self-respect. Do we really want our daughters, grand-daughters and great-granddaughters accepting the poor conditions we have to experience?

[Zandathepanda]

I like the idea of having a gap at the bottom of the toilet door in case of people collapsing behind it. You can see it someone needs help. This, obviously, works only in women only toilets for women.

[Imnobody4]

Bump. The deadline is 11.45 pm on 29 January 2021. It's really important to let the government know that single sex toilets matter and should not be replaced with gender neutral facilities.

[PaleBlueMoonlight]

Thank you for the reminder. This one is important. Single sex toilets are the most common single sex space and the only one that most people (in normal circumstances) use everyday. They benefit all women, whether or not specifically vulnerable.

[3beesinmybonnet]

Firstly thank you so much to all the FWR posters who are working so hard to protect women's rights. It's my first post on fwr but I've been lurking for ages now and learnt a lot from you. Please be gentle with me lol as I'm just being honest!
When I first started looking at mumsnet it was purely for some light relief and I avoided the FWR boards as I thought they'd be too serious and 'women are doing alright now surely '. Fwr was literally the last board I looked at and then only because I was curious to find out what all this transpeak business was about.
I really had no idea that things were going backwards while I was daydreaming. I've since signed some petitions wrote to my mp etc and I will be responding to this survey. Once again thank you for giving me a much needed kick up the backside.
But I also think there must be so many people just like I was who don't bother with the FWR boards, and so won't be aware of this survey and so won't respond.
So my suggestion is maybe if a thread was started in say, chat , it would get far more traffic, more people would be aware of the problem, and hopefully more people would respond to the survey.
Apologies if this has already been suggested.

[TheFleegleHasLanded]

This consultation is definitely open to anyone who wants to respond.

Good article here:

www.conservativesforwomen.org/the-conservatives-must-recommit-to-single-sex-spaces-in-legislation

[gardenbird48]

Hello 3bees and you make a good point - I’m sure mumsnetters more knowledgeable than me on the ways of the other boards can advise on posting elsewhere (I only got as far as FWR ).

women are doing alright now surely

That so reflects how I used to feel - I think I’ve been generally lucky (only really came across an issue when a more junior male team mate at work turned out to be paid more than ‘us girls’ - I put that down to my weaker negotiating skills ) but boy have I been disabused of that notion now!!

Anyway we will continue to do what we can. Are you up for starting this thread on the other board?

[Beamur]

Thanks for bumping this. I have responded.

[Deltoids1]

Thanks for the reminder, I had forgotten to do this but will do now.

And yes, it’s worth starting a chat thread about this (by someone far more eloquent than me) as I reckon toilet provision, or the lack of will be a wider Mumsnet issue.

[crushedsilk]

I've just sent a response. Thanks for the reminder. Critical we keep reminding them why we have single sex toilets in the first place!