Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

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www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7355c886-1aea-11eb-8493-5b46eb56a071?shareToken=4752a364029a4a557a2ba26a99d985d4

Religion is a protected characteristic. As is sex.

People with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment can't be discriminated against on that basis. But pilfering the protections for the other protected characteristics, doesn't come into it.

yeah, all those women born into strict mulsim or jewish families should just sort their shit out or stay the fuck indoors. they've brought it on themselves or they can always change religion. I am sure they are very free to leave that situation.

Religious belief is not a good enough reason to exclude someone from a public toilet.

Totally agree. It's absolutely not a good enough reason for male people to be allowed to exclude female people from female public toilets or indeed any public toilet, so that male people can have their full preferred choice from all the toilets they have available to them.

In fact it's ridiculous that there should be any reason at all considered good enough to exclude female people from female facilities so that male people can use them.

You seriously feel that female people should lose the right, held since the beginning of female toilets being provided at all alongside ones for males, to use any public toilet if due to their practicing of a religious faith or cultural restrictions or disability, or just plain fear, or desire for privacy and dignity, gets in the way of a male person's freedoms .

Of course this does show utter naivety about the reality of things like freedom to practice a religion (apparently fine until some males find it too inconvenient to themselves), the reality of being a wife, mother, daughter within those faiths and communities, what the reality would be of a devout person simply announcing to their family and community 'well I'm not doing this any more because my entire life and belief system is getting in the way of some males' personal freedoms and for some reason they say that my entire life choices and personal reality need to be predicated around what they happen to find convenient for me to have... oh and the fact I find THEIR life choices and personal reality very inconvenient and infringing is apparently fine and I should suck this up'....?

I mean come on. Seriously?

It's the kinder, gentler liberalism that we've all come to know so well. Women have no excuses to say no to what men demand, because men want it so very much that they are diagnosed as poorly bad suffering if they don't.

Now budge up, bigots.

I think the probable answer here is that this political lobby need to sit down and write a handbook for female type people laying down who they are, what they are, what they are to be called, what they can say, what they can have, do, what laws of the land no longer apply to them, under what circumstances the public facilities and services they pay for with their taxes will be exclusionary of them, who gets to decide all this and why and under what justification and so is the arbiter and authority over females, and what punishments (legal and otherwise) will be imposed for failure to obey all this.

And let's put that in the public view and discuss it. Let's talk about what this political lobby wants the future to look like for people born female, living in the UK in 2020. Let's test it all in court, fairly, under full and open discussion. Pop it in some manifestos and let political parties own and honestly campaign it.

In fact it's ridiculous that there should be any reason at all considered good enough to exclude female people from female facilities so that male people can use them.

It's absurd. And I'm constantly shocked that we're here.

the gender misogyny just fits neatly into that culturally conditioned 'men are the default human' jigsaw piece hole in people's minds

and then you get people like typesofcatalogue stating in public that it's OK to exclude women operating under oppressive patriarchal religions from being able to participate in society so some men can validate their gender identity.

that poster probably believes she's a feminist too

@MichelleofzeResistance

I think the probable answer here is that this political lobby need to sit down and write a handbook for female type people laying down who they are, what they are, what they are to be called, what they can say, what they can have, do, what laws of the land no longer apply to them, under what circumstances the public facilities and services they pay for with their taxes will be exclusionary of them, who gets to decide all this and why and under what justification and so is the arbiter and authority over females, and what punishments (legal and otherwise) will be imposed for failure to obey all this.

And let's put that in the public view and discuss it. Let's talk about what this political lobby wants the future to look like for people born female, living in the UK in 2020. Let's test it all in court, fairly, under full and open discussion. Pop it in some manifestos and let political parties own and honestly campaign it.

Absolutely, let's hear it, put it all out into the open, let's have all the facts, figures and justifications.

@Winesalot

And as usual jj keeps posting that women are not found partially dressed in loos. And keeps reassuring us that jj knows very fucking little about women.

A) washing blood out of clothes or baby sick or any thing and drying under the hand drier.

B) how many times did I have a pram shoved in the door while I was sitting on the toilet? Many, many times. jj is completely ignorant about wrangling children in the loos.

C) I have had to use public loos many times to get changed to go on somewhere else and the toilet floor is filthy so you have to do it in the public area. Or... change a child who has wet/soiled their clothes.

D) as another pp has posted about wheelchair users. But I have had to take my barely mobile mum in and had to assist her on and off the loo and in and out of clothes in public loos.

Plus let’s not forget in the 2000s, perverted males with mobile phones shooting under toilet walls/doors etc were not a factor in women’s safety in loos. Cameras in phones were not good enough at the time, there was no boundaries being blurred so males were easily dealt with and if they did get a pic, the internet had limited options for distribution. So that has now also become a significant issue in female facilities that needs to be dealt with. Hard now to deal with it if boundaries are non existent.

Keep on posting jj. In your total ignorance you keep shedding light. You truly have no comprehension that you have so little knowledge about women yet keep professing that of course transwomen are women.

Are you from the 1950s or something? I've spent half my life looking after small kids including my own. And as a disabled person's PA I'm well aware of the needs of wheelchair users thanks.

jj
Yet you learnt so very little from those experiences. Even with all that knowledge you still can’t see why women do not want male bodied strangers in their private spaces. Enclosed cubicles don’t work if you can’t fit a buggy in them, you end up having to leave the door open.

I have or more than on occasion stood with my shirt open in a ladies loo whilst I rinsed off coffee / food I had spilt. The perils of eating at your desk! I would have been mortified if a male bodied colleague had come in no matter how they identified.

Absolutely agree Michelle. Sunlight is badly needed here.

Are you from the 1950s or something? I've spent half my life looking after small kids including my own. And as a disabled person's PA I'm well aware of the needs of wheelchair users thanks.

You’ve spent half your life looking after small children while they have been out and about, or travelling nowhere near home and never had the pram stuck in the toilet door or had to clean your clothes up after being vomited on by an infant or had to change a child in the loo? Great, please give me tips on how you did that.

And wonderful then that there has always been a disabled loo available whenever you have been out helping your client. Of course, it was only a few years ago that I had to help my mum, but crack on with your ignorance.

Oh, yeah I bet you never had to express milk in a toilet because you couldn’t feed your infant at work and well, the only space available was a toilet because no one would let you into an unused office. Or had to wash and dry out your top because your breasts leaked so much the pads couldn’t contain the milk.

Just accept that there is so many more uses for the ladies. Or do you think that toilets in the year 2020 are used differently to the year 2019?

Oh yeah, forgot. jj is someone who has the privilege of standing up to pee. No worries about prams or strollers stuck in doorways while you entertain a fractious child.

But Michelle, if they write the book for us explaining everything that would spoil their game entirely. They want to keep us on our toes, so we are never quite clear about what is expected of us and what is going on. They also want to be free to change the rules at any moment. Power and control are the goals here not clarity and definitely not debate. We just have to do what they say at any given moment without question, that is all.

I'm well aware of the needs of wheelchair users thanks.

and dismiss them entirely as you did with what Tanni Gray-Thompson said.

@DaisiesandButtercups

But Michelle, if they write the book for us explaining everything that would spoil their game entirely. They want to keep us on our toes, so we are never quite clear about what is expected of us and what is going on. They also want to be free to change the rules at any moment. Power and control are the goals here not clarity and definitely not debate. We just have to do what they say at any given moment without question, that is all.

Yep a race of zombies to control and order at will I'm sure forelock tugging will feature in there somewhere as well.

*Are you from the 1950s or something?

Oh. Now I get it. I from the 1950s because I must be a prude for not wanting to be without a top or jeans or a skirt in the presence of a male who thinks their right to use a female loo trumps my right to dignity (what I would have being in such a state in a women’s loo anyway).

Or maybe it is just ‘not done’ in 2020 to change out of a work uniform to go out when you don’t live close to home and there isn’t a place to change at work....

So .... the person you work for who is in a wheelchair is a female you take to the women’s toilet then to help when there is no disabled toilet available? So, you have actual experience helping a wheelchair bound elderly woman off their chair onto the loo and helping them clean themselves and back onto the loo? All with being able to close the door? Must be a much larger cubicle than I have ever found in the usual women’s toilets and nothing like the ones we had to use for my mother.

Yeah, your right. Do keep on, your ignorance keeps on coming....

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

Sorry, what is, MaudTheInvincible?

I was responding to RedDogsBeg's post directly above mine.

Yes, I'm from the 1950s. What can I help you with?

Ah! Right, sorry, the quasi-religious regime that trumps all other religions. Got it.

You know I swear I'm going to start making up words or references and deliberately slipping them into posts to try and explain women's experience and feelings, and watching to see how long before they come back used in posts to shut up women talking about their rights. I just spotted another one boomeranging back.

You’ve spent half your life looking after small children while they have been out and about, or travelling nowhere near home and never had the pram stuck in the toilet door or had to clean your clothes up after being vomited on by an infant or had to change a child in the loo? Great, please give me tips on how you did that.

Yes, that's what looking after small children means. And trying to change a child in the men's which often had no changing facilities could be very difficult, one reason why toilet design needs to be rethought and gender neutral options are a good idea.

Not all trans women have the privilege of being able to stand to pee by the way.

And wheelchairs users generally use accessible toilets, for precisely the reasons you mention, although I'm sure you knew that really.

I think it's the third time I've mentioned this on the thread: no one here disagrees for a moment that gender neutral facilities would be a great idea for many reasons. Just in addition to existing facilities.

The point of disagreement is the insistence that female only facilities must be removed from all females. That's the bit that's the problem.

And wheelchairs users generally use accessible toilets, for precisely the reasons you mention, although I'm sure you knew that really..

And you must live in an area well catered for. But do keep on, as I say. It shows your lack of knowledge and of empathy.

Yes, that's what looking after small children means.

And you have never had to use the loo with the pram or stroller in the door? So what did you do with the child while you were sitting on the toilet? Or did you have someone else to help? Or you left the child alone and crying parked outside the cubicle?

Do tell how you managed it since you think only a woman from the 1950s would have to have the pram/stroller in the door.

Or because you don’t have a pelvic floor effected by carrying a child you could wait til you were home after 8 hours of being out.