Starting on 28 October Judicial Review of prison guidelines on transgender - and launch of new web site Keep Prisons Single Sex

[stumbledin]

Thanks to recent contributors to the thread started over a year ago about a woman assaulted by a trans person allowed into a women's prison www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3733987-Judicial-review-for-woman-prisoner-alleging-sexual-assault-by-trans-rapist-in-prison there is news that the court case will start this week.

Fairplay for women have info about this on their twitter account pbs.twimg.com/media/ElKU7HjWMAAcN48?format=jpg&name=900x900

Also worth following a new group Keep Prisons Single Sex who are launching their web site soon twitter.com/NoXYinXXprisons

And others are also posting on this.

Shared, not sabres

@MiladyRenata

I still haven't seen an argument explaining why a trans woman should be treated more harshly in prison than any other woman, simply because of her chromosomes.

Well you won't be seeing one because what you are saying bears little relationship to the truth.

The point is that why should a person receive more comfortable and lenient treatment in prison simply on the basis of their chromosomes?

The answer isn't because of their chromosomes but that as the sex class women, they have been oppressed by the sex class men. No amount of identifying wearing dresses or anything else nullifies that fundamental experience of being a woman. That is why women should be in single sex prisons (and else where) because the oppressing class, men, are not just triggering but the source of potential danger.

It is as ridiculous as suggestting that because a white person indentifies as black, somehow they lose all the race based priviledges they have experienced throughout live.

The oppressing group, men, however they dress or identify, are still the sex class that oppress the sex class of women.

(And by the way the issue wasn't about women being able to wear dresses, but the fact they are according to the post allowed to wear their own clothes - which might well be jeans or leggings - but male prisons aren't. You need to start a campaign to give male prisoners the same rights in terms of clothes as women if they is what worries you.)

@stumbledin

Thanks to recent contributors to the thread started over a year ago about a woman assaulted by a trans person allowed into a women's prison www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3733987-Judicial-review-for-woman-prisoner-alleging-sexual-assault-by-trans-rapist-in-prison there is news that the court case will start this week.

Fairplay for women have info about this on their twitter account pbs.twimg.com/media/ElKU7HjWMAAcN48?format=jpg&name=900x900

Also worth following a new group Keep Prisons Single Sex who are launching their web site soon twitter.com/NoXYinXXprisons

And others are also posting on this.

Thank you to you hardworking and courageous women for doing this. It's inspiring to see I'll be watching out for updates, and keeping my fingers crossed that all goes well for you tomorrow.

OK, so you are suggesting that one person, A, deserves better treatment in prison that another, B, who is guilty of the same crime.

The basis of this is that A is part of a group that, collectively, suffers more oppression than the group that B is a part of. Lets grant that premise for now. This is nothing to do with anything about the individuals A and B, their upbringings, experiences, behaviour or psychology.

A is just morally superior to B and therefore deserves better treatment.

Is that what you think?

“I still haven't seen an argument explaining why a trans woman should be treated more harshly in prison than any other woman, simply because of her chromosomes.”

You’ve made the huge and baseless assumption that women are women because they share a common psychology. What this common psychology is you can’t describe and it is highly unlikely that the 30m + women in the U.K. share a common psychology. Females do share a common biology and the experiences that flow from that. In the case of female prisoners that it likely to include sexual and physical abuse from males. The prison regime allows for that. Trans prisoners, held in a separate unit, have their own experiences and no doubt would have their own regime.It isn’t relevant here.

Not meaning to whatabout or derail, but what happens to trans men who receive custodial sentences?

That's not derailing, because it's still about female prisoners. Good question, I'm interested too.

@Butterer

Not meaning to whatabout or derail, but what happens to trans men who receive custodial sentences?

There are, I believe, a small number of transmen in prison, but all of them are in the female estate - if this mind boggling article from PN (feel free not to click) is correct:

'The MoJ also reported 20 trans men – all of whom are in women’s prisons.'

www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/11/29/transgender-trans-prison-england-wales/

@MiladyRenata

But women can wear whatever they like in prison, including dresses. Men cannot. That's the point.

Seek a judicial review of mens clothing rules then.

@MiladyRenata

I think we are getting sidetracked on a detail here.

The point is that why should a person receive more comfortable and lenient treatment in prison simply on the basis of their chromosomes? I haven't heard an argument for that yet.

Hilarious. Nope, you are trying to change the purpose of the thread.

Seek a judicial review of mens clothing rules then.

Exactly. If people think that women as a sex class and treated less harshly than men, then campaign for male prisoners to be treated better.

butterer

That is an interesting question. I have seen on recently that some transmen feel they should be put in a male prison if they were ever convicted of a crime and sentenced. However, hopefully those people will never find out if they would fight for that alternative or not.

*on twitter.

@Butterer

So why no dresses or caring/kindness for trans women in prison?

Ask a governor of a male prison? I think it's a bit of a leap to suggest that advocating for female rights mean a) we support prison uniforms for men generally, and b) we don't think MTF trans prisoners should be treated kindly, within the male estate!

[quote MiladyRenata]@Butterer

So why no dresses or caring/kindness for trans women in prison?[/quote]
Looking forward to seeing your campaign start for better conditions for transwomen in their own spaces in the male estate, and for more research into better treatment suitable for their needs.

In the meantime, the readers of this thread are seeing what the issues are that women are fighting for to improve women prisoner’s lives. They are also getting a better understanding about what is obviously important to transwomen.

Maybe this is the fundamental difference. I think that trans women are women, and therefore deserve all the care and kindness that other women do (even if they have broken the law).

The point is that, when it comes to prisons (for example) I accept the need for segregation on a (biological) sex basis for the safety and dignity of all.

I also believe that trans women are entitled to exactly the same treatment as other women. This includes the right to appropriate gender presentation (eg wearing dresses) and segregation between men and trans women to protect trans women from male violence.

I don't understand why you would want to deny trans women these basic rights.

So with no one disagreeing you can go ahead and launch that campaign for transwomen to receive equal treatment in a separate part of the estate Milady. I wish you luck.

Meanwhile here's a reminder of what's happening today (weds 28th):

Inmate sues government over keeping trans women in all-female prisons

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/inmate-sues-government-over-keeping-trans-women-in-prison-t7w2t5lx8