Starting on 28 October Judicial Review of prison guidelines on transgender - and launch of new web site Keep Prisons Single Sex

[stumbledin]

Thanks to recent contributors to the thread started over a year ago about a woman assaulted by a trans person allowed into a women's prison www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3733987-Judicial-review-for-woman-prisoner-alleging-sexual-assault-by-trans-rapist-in-prison there is news that the court case will start this week.

Fairplay for women have info about this on their twitter account pbs.twimg.com/media/ElKU7HjWMAAcN48?format=jpg&name=900x900

Also worth following a new group Keep Prisons Single Sex who are launching their web site soon twitter.com/NoXYinXXprisons

And others are also posting on this.

Perhaps we’re veering (again) into what males think makes a woman versus the reality of being a woman.

Oh we certainly are. This is an extension of PP's views on the 'We are non transwomen' thread.

Maybe people shouldn’t be taking Women In Prison exploitation movies as gospel.

@Sexnotgender

I wonder, how many women in prison wear dresses and makeup?

I watched a program a while back and while it was obviously just a snapshot the women were predominantly wearing tracksuit bottoms, jeans or leggings and hoodies or jumpers. I don’t recall seeing much makeup.

Perhaps we’re veering (again) into what males think makes a woman versus the reality of being a woman.

I was thinking that - on the police investigation real life programmes I have seen, the poor women are in such a terrible situation by the time they get to prison, make up and dresses are extremely unlikely to be on the list.

Surviving their trauma, drug addiction, eating disorder, separation from children, trying to work out how to get away from their pimp when they get out might be higher priorities for the majority.

Where women have found make up and dresses to be a factor in encouraging unpleasant treatment by males, they tend to quietly avoid wearing them. It is not so long ago that women were blamed for their own rapes because of what they were wearing - I still nag my beautiful teenage daughter to cover up (I still can't work out how to justify this to her) when she goes out.

I wonder why someone who is not born female would place such high value on being able to wear such things when so many women deliberately avoid it.

gahh fell for the derail again but maybe one day the message will stick?

Until there is further news at least a derail keeps the thread bumped.

The more posts the more will get to see it.

@Deliriumoftheendless

Until there is further news at least a derail keeps the thread bumped.

The more posts the more will get to see it.

Quite.

And they should hopefully see the women putting forward coherent arguments based on safety and protecting the vulnerable.

And others putting forward arguments about men being upset that these privileged women in prison get to wear dresses and makeup and that option should be available to both sexes.

I thought prisoners in male prisons were able to wear what they wanted and to have makeup and other things provided as needed? I'm pretty sure the female estate isn't keeping the Mac and Boden locked down within their walls, and those options are available to anyone of any sex regardless of which estate they're in.

The only thing not provided within the male estate is biologically female prisoners.

Yes michelle I thought it was part of the "affirmative " treatment thet the prisoners were entitled to .so jnfact they were treated better than the other men with these perks and in fact the women too because they are left to free bleed in custody amd denied even the basics

And to be fair many males have been let off any kind of custodial sentence citing Gender dysphoria issues /mental health problems. Wasnt a dangerous predator released after they identified as a woman and they felt that and the oestrogen they took ( only half the time mind as they still wanted to keep their erection ) deemed them no longer a threat?

I think either you believe in self ID and the right to all Transwomen to be housed in the female estate or you don't. If you start agreeing with the gatekeeping that's keeping say Tiffany Scott in the mens estate then how is that OK but women objecting is bigotry? Gate keeping is gate keeping surely?

Its all a bit one sided

@Sexnotgender

I wonder, how many women in prison wear dresses and makeup?

I watched a program a while back and while it was obviously just a snapshot the women were predominantly wearing tracksuit bottoms, jeans or leggings and hoodies or jumpers. I don’t recall seeing much makeup.

Perhaps we’re veering (again) into what males think makes a woman versus the reality of being a woman.

When I knew Karen Jones (post prison), they absolutely hated wearing dresses/makeup etc. The lingerie makeover style photos that come up in the press were to placate a relative who (bear in mind that at this point I believed them telling me they were a natal butch lesbian) was upset that they always dressed 'unfemininely'. They (K) always had a 'oh god they're expecting me to wear a dress' strop when they were due to spend a few days up there. Other than those occasions, they were usually in tracksuit bottoms, jeans and a hoody. The only "female" clothing i ever saw them wear was a running top for the local women's running group.

I take your point though about focusing our attention on better treatment for trans women rather than integration with other women. It's a good one.

Good. If you can just concentrate on getting Stonewall et al to focus on nice safe transgender wings in men’s prisons, milad, where they can wear dresses, makeup & heels, use the names of their choice & be completely segregated from the main prison, that would be great. There are loads of prisoners on www.keep-prisons-single-sex.org.uk/ who could go in there - have a look at the Case Studies section.

The only thing not provided within the male estate is biologically female prisoners.

Ain't that the truth

As the MoJ or whoever it was has actually derailed the court case itself a derail here, which I had hoped would allow us to follow the case isn't as depressing as I thought it was. Though still pretty stupid and so obviously a ploy. And I am one of those who just cant stop themselves feeding the trolls.

Interestingly the actual organisation Women in Prison has not made any public comment (as of yesterday when I checked). That's a bit sad. You would like to think they were able to comment. Makes them seem not that invested in their client group - women prisoners.

Has this link every been publised showing women prisoners' response to questions from Fair Play for Women? fairplayforwomen.com/insidetime/

thecritic.co.uk/keep-men-out-of-womens-prisons/

Excellent article, that pulls no punches.

Stumbled I'd seen those couple of quotes, very glad that FPFW are being so careful of the anonymity of the women who have dared to speak with them. It brings home though, again, that during the two to three months the MoJ will take getting their act together before this returns to court ready to be heard, there are women prisoners who may suffer in ways they wouldn't have had to had the case been heard on time, under practice that may turn out to be illegal.

Jo Bartosch rocks.

Im sorry if this is an ignorant question - it isnt meant to be - but if the MOJ's own statistics suggest that a large proportion of transwomen prisoners are sex offenders, doesn't that provide a bloody good reason to NOT lock them up with women? I realise that not all sex offenders target women... but an awful lot do.

You'd think it would funny, but apparently not.

I realise that not all sex offenders target women... but an awful lot do.

Let's be honest, it's almost all.

Also keep in mind, that less than 1% of rapes of females are successfully prosecuted. We're talking about male prisoners who have committed sex offences of significant number and severity to not only get through CPS and court, but ended in a custodial sentence long enough that the prisoner has time to go through identification procedures and it be worth transferring them between estates.

We're not talking about mild offences here. Bear in mind that Karen White raped a woman on a locked psych ward where Karen had identified onto the female ward (no GRC) multiple times leaving the woman so badly injured she may not be able to have children, and was awaiting the court case for that in the female prison estate where White successfully assaulted at least two further victims to the point of a court taking notice. How the fucking hell did someone imprisoned for such a severe rape get approved to be held in the female estate?

It's an utterly baffling, appalling disregard for female humanity, never mind equality.

@funnylittlefloozie

Im sorry if this is an ignorant question - it isnt meant to be - but if the MOJ's own statistics suggest that a large proportion of transwomen prisoners are sex offenders, doesn't that provide a bloody good reason to NOT lock them up with women? I realise that not all sex offenders target women... but an awful lot do.

You’d think that... but clearly women’s safety isn’t high on the agenda.

@funnylittlefloozie

Im sorry if this is an ignorant question - it isnt meant to be - but if the MOJ's own statistics suggest that a large proportion of transwomen prisoners are sex offenders, doesn't that provide a bloody good reason to NOT lock them up with women? I realise that not all sex offenders target women... but an awful lot do.

Unfortunately the only people who can answer that don’t seem very willing to.

It's an utterly baffling, appalling disregard for female humanity, never mind equality.

It really is. And, it appears to me, it's already being reduced in shock value, somehow.

You're quite right, this rapist was one of the worst. And still put in a female prison and given access to vulnerable, incarcerated women. What possible mechanism could ever be acceptable for that to happen?

It's depraved.

Worth mentioning as well that virtually all transwomen in male jails are already held on VP wings, whether they are sex offenders or not. The only one i know of who wasnt, came into the prison on discharge from a psychiatric hospital.

Bumping because Fair Play for Women just posted that the Transgender Prison judicial review is being heard today.

I’ve started a thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4180758-MOJ-Prison-Policy-JR-TODAY

I’ve included Twitter links