Starting on 28 October Judicial Review of prison guidelines on transgender - and launch of new web site Keep Prisons Single Sex

[stumbledin]

Thanks to recent contributors to the thread started over a year ago about a woman assaulted by a trans person allowed into a women's prison www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3733987-Judicial-review-for-woman-prisoner-alleging-sexual-assault-by-trans-rapist-in-prison there is news that the court case will start this week.

Fairplay for women have info about this on their twitter account pbs.twimg.com/media/ElKU7HjWMAAcN48?format=jpg&name=900x900

Also worth following a new group Keep Prisons Single Sex who are launching their web site soon twitter.com/NoXYinXXprisons

And others are also posting on this.

Thank you KeepPrisonsSingleSex

I'm still gobsmacked by the reality that we live in an age where it's become acceptable to house male rapists among trapped, vulnerable women, to consult only with the males and consider the risks and benefits to the males, and to frame even the consideration of the right of those women not to be assaulted and raped alongside the perceived right of the male to have his personal choices validated as some kind of 'hate'.

This is a world of extremist, bizarre misogyny where it's become so normal that most barely see it.

Re the article in the Times (upthread). I can't see it in my online edition? If I hadn't spotted the link upthread I would have missed it. Anyone else?

Persistent, I assume it's in this morning's News section but I can't see it either.

I am here and doing this because of taking part in threads on MN five years ago. MN is incredible. Never underestimate what can happen because of the amazing women here.

YOU are one of the amazing women KeepPrisonsSingleSex, thank you for all that you and your organisation are doing for some of the most vulnerable and marginalised females in our society

There should be no males in the female estate. Ever.

Interesting comment on the Times article shared by Empress:

Ministry of Justice is fifth in the Stonewall Diversity Champions league of top 100 organisations.

Organisations climb the league rankings by promoting the policy of including biological males into women's single-sex spaces.

The Chief People Officer at the MoJ is a former Stonewall trustee.

Thank you for all your amazing work on this KeepPrisonsSingleSex and to Fair Play for Women.

In response to the comment about the links between MoJ and Stonewall, just makes me think (and I've said this so many times) if ony someone would compile a chart (a sort of family tree) showing the informal / personal links between groups.

Someone suggest some software that they thought would make it easy to do, but I couldn't understand it!

It would be great if it produced a visual representation of what feels like this spider's web of links is suffocating us all.

Was it Trello, the software? I can't get my head around it either but some people find it useful.

Part of the evidence for tomorrow's case is a Freedom of Information request obtained by Fair Play For Women about how the trans prisoners policies were developed. I am sure it will be reported on. I believe Nic Williams can publish it once the case starts, even if it doesn't get talked about in court. Money on the authorities thinking about the impact on vulnerable women of being imprisoned with violent men? I'm not taking any bets on that!

Ereshkigalangcleg - cant remember!

But have found this which might just do the trick, if I have the time to get my head round it. Recomended for investigative journalists! vis.occrp.org/ Shame that there seems to be site problems at the moment

This will be such an important case for women. I hope that justice prevails and the dangers recognized. Go sisters!

So if the question is about safety, which I agree is paramount, what would the objection be to housing trans women in completely segregated units within women's prisons?

If there is no risk of contact between trans women and other women, let alone abuse of any kind taking place, then what would the difficulty be?

So if the question is about safety, which I agree is paramount, what would the objection be to housing trans transwomen in completely segregated units within men’s prisons?

If there is no risk of contact between transwomen and other men, let alone abuse of any kind taking place, then what would the difficulty be?

This works now - you’re welcome

Opening a unit for male prisoners on the site of a women's prison? I guess the question is why when there are already other sites for male prisoners with the expertise in eg. male sex offending that these prisoners need.

@Aesopfable

The reason why trans women need their own facilities is that it would be highly demeaning, and dangerous, to force them to share with men. However I accept the challenges around physical biology which mean the same problems exist as regards trans women sharing with other women.

Thank you KeepPrisonsSingleSex and well done.

[quote MiladyRenata]@Aesopfable

The reason why trans women need their own facilities is that it would be highly demeaning, and dangerous, to force them to share with men. However I accept the challenges around physical biology which mean the same problems exist as regards trans women sharing with other women.[/quote]
Even if transwomen were more at risk than other vulnerable male prisoners eg elderly, disabled, those with learning disabilities, there is still no reason not to house them on a site with other male prisoners. That is just a reason for improving men’s prisons.

@ItsLateHumpty

So if the question is about safety, which I agree is paramount, what would the objection be to housing trans transwomen in completely segregated units within men’s prisons?

If there is no risk of contact between transwomen and other men, let alone abuse of any kind taking place, then what would the difficulty be?

This works now - you’re welcome

That sounds like the perfect solution to me, Humpty.

Women's prisons don't usually have the facilities to deal with high risk or very violent, sexual offenders. This is something that men's prisons have provisions for due to the nature of male violence.

So unless there was substantial funding provided to build a completely segregated unit attached next to women's prisons, I don't see how the problems and risks associated with mixed sex prisons would be adequately handled.
Prison budgets are already substantially diminished across the board - for men and women's prisons. The government would rather not provide sufficient public funding for ideological reasons, rather than economical ones. Far easier to shove trans women prisoners into female units and get that shiny diversity gold star with zero financial cost.

1 in 50 male prisoners is transgender. The numbers alone might justify separate prisons for transgender people in general. It would even be easier to provide specific services in dedicated facilities like hormone treatments and healthcare monitoring.

@ItsLateHumpty

So if the question is about safety, which I agree is paramount, what would the objection be to housing trans transwomen in completely segregated units within men’s prisons?

If there is no risk of contact between transwomen and other men, let alone abuse of any kind taking place, then what would the difficulty be?

This works now - you’re welcome

Yes, that sounds like the perfect solution to me. Would easily solve the existing conflicts.

I think we are ignoring something very important here.

Women in prison are given some important privileges men are not. Most important of these is the right to wear their own clothing, which applies regardless of security classification. Also, prison staff are trained to address women prisoners by their first names.

Things like this might sound pretty trivial, but actually they can be very important to the way people experience prison. The reasons behind these distinctions, as far as I can tell, like in the differences between male and female psychology. Women are likely to do better in a more relaxed environment that focuses on caring for them and building their self esteem. The militaristic and overtly punitive male prison environment is, on the other hand, likely to be very harmful to women.

My point is that, if trans women are psychologically more similar to other women than they are to men, then surely the more liberal regime applied to women would be more appropriate for them?

Humpty you’ve probably said all that needs saying on that one.

if trans women are psychologically more similar to other women than they are to men

Remind us how they're psychologically 'more similar'?

My point is that, if trans women are psychologically more similar to other women than they are to men, then surely the more liberal regime applied to women would be more appropriate for them?

It’d be great to have a peer reviewed study that gives evidence that transwomen are psychologically more similar to women. Or are we just going back to ‘stereotypes’ again and no evidence at all.

That and that females are not opressed in any way.

A strong desire to live as women do and be treated as a woman is a pretty good indicator that a person has a female psychology, is it not?