Starting on 28 October Judicial Review of prison guidelines on transgender - and launch of new web site Keep Prisons Single Sex

[stumbledin]

Thanks to recent contributors to the thread started over a year ago about a woman assaulted by a trans person allowed into a women's prison www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3733987-Judicial-review-for-woman-prisoner-alleging-sexual-assault-by-trans-rapist-in-prison there is news that the court case will start this week.

Fairplay for women have info about this on their twitter account pbs.twimg.com/media/ElKU7HjWMAAcN48?format=jpg&name=900x900

Also worth following a new group Keep Prisons Single Sex who are launching their web site soon twitter.com/NoXYinXXprisons

And others are also posting on this.

Only if they get the same privileges women receive.

Yes, I fully support MTF trans people getting all the many and varied advantages of female prisoners like what?, if it is in the male estate.

I think we may be splitting hairs here. As far as I can see we are agreed on two major principles:

1. Men, trans women and other women should be held in separate spaces.

1. Trans women should receive the same treatment as other women.

Am I missing something, or are either of these incorrect?

@MiladyRenata

I still haven't seen an argument explaining why a trans woman should be treated more harshly in prison than any other woman, simply because of her chromosomes.

We have seen no evidence that transwomen are psychologically the same as women. Plus you have not addressed at all the abuse history of women prisoners that has been studied.

Not have you acknowledged that the crimes that women are imprisoned for are notably different than for transwomen. Convenient really, as this would and should have an impact on how they are treated in prison. Ie. Violent vs non-violent on average.

You also have a track record for telling us women are pampered and privileged. It seems you are continuing this yet again. This time in a discussion about women prisoners being pampered and privileged in their treatment.

Another tone deaf derail on a thread that is about women’s pain and oppression.

Separate trans unit within male estate with no access from other males and privileges as deemed necessary by the experts.

Women only in women’s prisons. All units run to respect, care for and rehabilitate where appropriate. Anyone who is judged unable to be rehabilitated can still have care and dignity with appropriate consequences for any inappropriate actions whilst incarcerated.

Women prisoners who have been victims of domestic abuse are not privileged. Women who have been separated from their children are not privileged. Women imprisoned for non-violent crimes at immense risk to their mental health (see self harm stats) are not privileged. The profile of transwomen in the prison estate does not match up with the profile of women in the female estate.

So why should a trans woman in prison have to convince an expert she needs the privilege to be allowed to wear a dress, but other women get this privilege automatically?

@MiladyRenata

So why should a trans woman in prison have to convince an expert she needs the privilege to be allowed to wear a dress, but other women get this privilege automatically?

Wow, just wow

Trans women should receive the same treatment as other women.

Why? There is no way to think like a woman. There is only the facts that we keep presenting to you- female versus male crime, women’s prevalence for suffering abuse and trauma prior to prison etc.

These are not relevant to transwomen. Treatment for transwomen should be specific to their needs. Go campaign for appropriate studies to actually be done to work out what is best and then organize your lobby groups to do it.

Stop simply believing that what is best for women is best for transwomen if their this NO evidence that it is the best option.

@MiladyRenata

So why should a trans woman in prison have to convince an expert she needs the privilege to be allowed to wear a dress, but other women get this privilege automatically?

Fucking hell! You are talking about dresses, we are talking about women being safe and being treated for mental health issues, getting some kind of assistance to make a better fucking life.

Talk about superficial and self absorbed.

Can you answer my question? Why should dress wearing be restricted to people with a certain chromosomal makeup, whether in prison or not?

I honestly don't know what to say. You've rendered me speechless.

But women can wear whatever they like in prison, including dresses. Men cannot. That's the point.

It's not a question that is an issue for feminism. And this thread is important and relates to a current Judicial Review on the safety and dignity of female prisoners so it might be an idea to start a new thread about sex stereotyped clothing in prison. You could try AIBU.

I am happy for all men to be able to wear dresses in prison, personally. But it probably needs a campaign. I'm sure there are organisations which would assist.

We have been told repeatedly that being a transwoman has nothing to do with what they wear. If this is incorrect, please do post the evidence.

If this is something that is important to transwomen in prison, start your campaign. This has nothing to do with women or this thread as far as I can tell.

And no one has denied that transwomen need their own spaces, and to have their own needs identified and met when it is appropriate.

Actually Eresh is right. A thread on AIBU would be better for that particular discussion.

I think we are getting sidetracked on a detail here.

The point is that why should a person receive more comfortable and lenient treatment in prison simply on the basis of their chromosomes? I haven't heard an argument for that yet.

Whataboutery is never a good basis for an argument in FWR.

The point is that why should a person receive more comfortable and lenient treatment in prison simply on the basis of their chromosomes?

Why should we explain any further than we have? You do not even acknowledge that women are oppressed in the first place. Understanding that underlying fact is crucial to understanding what women need in prison.

To you, these women are again showing their privilege.

Do you really hate women that much?

I haven't heard an argument for that yet.

By the way, where is the evidence that transwomen are psychologically similar to women?

For info (and for comparison with the stats on female prisoners sabres previously) following a BBC foi, the Ministry of Justice said:

60 of the 125 transgender inmates it counted in England and Wales were serving time for a sexual offence.
This is roughly half...That's transgender inmates who have had a prison case conference (to be recognised as transwomen I'm assuming as those with a GRC are not included - but their numbers are v small in wider society)

Of the 60 serving time for sexual offences:
▪ 27 were convicted of rape (plus a further five of attempted rape)
▪ 13 were convicted of possessing, distributing or making indecent images of children
▪ 13 were convicted of sexual assault or attempted sexual assault
▪ Nine were convicted of causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity
▪ Seven were convicted of sexual activity with a child
▪ Seven were convicted of indecent assault or gross indecency