Starting on 28 October Judicial Review of prison guidelines on transgender - and launch of new web site Keep Prisons Single Sex

[stumbledin]

Thanks to recent contributors to the thread started over a year ago about a woman assaulted by a trans person allowed into a women's prison www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3733987-Judicial-review-for-woman-prisoner-alleging-sexual-assault-by-trans-rapist-in-prison there is news that the court case will start this week.

Fairplay for women have info about this on their twitter account pbs.twimg.com/media/ElKU7HjWMAAcN48?format=jpg&name=900x900

Also worth following a new group Keep Prisons Single Sex who are launching their web site soon twitter.com/NoXYinXXprisons

And others are also posting on this.

Nobody in prison should be exposed to harm.

This is why I agree there is a need for separate accommodation for trans women and other women.

It is also why throwing trans women in with the men is wrong.

@MichelleofzeResistance

Thank you KeepPrisonsSingleSex

I'm still gobsmacked by the reality that we live in an age where it's become acceptable to house male rapists among trapped, vulnerable women, to consult only with the males and consider the risks and benefits to the males, and to frame even the consideration of the right of those women not to be assaulted and raped alongside the perceived right of the male to have his personal choices validated as some kind of 'hate'.

This is a world of extremist, bizarre misogyny where it's become so normal that most barely see it.

I see it. I think we all see it. They just expect us to eat shit and keep quiet.

I take your point though about focusing our attention on better treatment for trans women rather than integration with other women. It's a good one

I think all prisoners should be treated humanely. Otherwise how are we any better than they are if we treat them like shit or allow them to be assaulted etc

Everyone should be safe in the correct prison for their sex. Woman and especially women prisoners are not there to absorb male violence. If some males aren't safe amongst other males thats on the staff at the mens prison to sort out. They shouldn't be dumped on the womens estate

But I also believe actually that this is something that should be made clear when drs/councillors deal with those who wish to transition. Tell them that when certain situations arise , in this case being in prison, that they will be placed according to sex. Then there's no confusion/argument

www.womenarehuman.com/former-prison-guard-caught-with-22000-images-of-child-porn-helped-set-scottish-trans-prisoner-rules/

When people like this are writing the policy allowing male prisoners to be transferred to the female estate, it's hardly surprising that the needs of the female prisoners are totally ignored.

And you can focus that attention , after all you will get listened too far more than we will, so right now our priority is keeping women in prison safe from males who shouldn't be there.

That is if what appears to he a common tactic of a government funded organisation with plenty of funds, failing to do what they need to do and stringing it along in the hope the other side run out of cash befire it gets any further .

[quote ArabellaScott]Other thread, Eyes

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3733987-Judicial-review-for-woman-prisoner-alleging-sexual-assault-by-trans-rapist-in-prison?msgid=101238531#101238531[/quote]
thank you

I also believe that trans women are entitled to exactly the same treatment as other women. This includes the right to appropriate gender presentation (eg wearing dresses) and segregation between men and trans women to protect trans women from male violence.

That sounds like something I could get behind. I don't really see why men cannot wear dresses in prison should they want to?

Also yes to segregation for the safety of the transwoman, if they feel they need it.

This may be the first post of yours that I agree with, its probably a once in a lifetime thing though!

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg facts and statistics seem to be pointedly ignored now as they were during the original derail sadly.

Just like the requests for evidence that transwomen were psychologically similar to women.

@MichelleofzeResistance

And this is what the consultation made them face and they're going to have to address this evidence too: women have a stake in this, women's rights are a thing, women are being very badly treated and disenfranchised in all this and they are going to have to face up to it.

This is so important. Women's rights.

It is sickening women are being ignored about issues that directly affect them and their safety.

If the purpose of prison is to rehabilitate and render rapists safe for release, then it would be discriminatory to deny some rapists access to rehabilitation by housing them in the Women’s Estate where, for obvious reasons, this is not available.

Similarly, rehabilitation and support for women prisoners is tailored to their needs. It would be discriminatory to subject male prisoners to unhelpful and irrelevant activities and to subject female prisoners to an environment which prevented them from benefiting.

The only place for male prisoners is in the Men’s Estate, for their benefit and for the benefit of women.

The conditions in Men’s Prisons and any special facilities within those prisons are clearly out-with the scope of this discussion.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Then do something about mens prisons ajd how they treat their prisoners.

Womens prisons are not dumping ground for males who don't get on with the approach at their sex based prison.

Exactly. And calling female prisoners privileged is frankly despicable.

facts and statistics seem to be pointedly ignored now as they were during the original derail sadly

funny innit? It's why I feel OK about adopting a generally piss taking approach to that particular contributor, something I would never do to a person who was engaging with the arguments.

but some people behave in a way that means they don't deserve to be taken seriously, don't they?

Exactly. And calling female prisoners privileged is frankly despicable

Does us a favour though. Shows they absolutely have no clue whatsoever. They know nothing about women what they go through and that it's all about making women suffer and removing everything they have that helps keep them safe just because men don't get it.

If they actually cared they'd help the men out.

But as usual when when talking about women in prison many of whom.are rape victims, survivours of CSA and/or domestic violence, somehow straight white xy people are more hard done by

Its embarrassing..

There will be no such campaign. Its always always about taking away from women not adding fir the men.

Like single sex swim sessions. They call up and get them cancelled when they easily could write and ask if they could set up a mens one.

I think its helpful for any still on the fence to see that even when a female prisoners is raped/assaulted , conversation still has to ve focused on how we can make it better fir the transwoman. Ie always about the males..

Of they come away still thinking that women sre the lucky ones here they are either trolling or just beyond help

Shows they absolutely have no clue whatsoever.

Yes... significantly empathy seems to be lacking as well.

The whole 'privilege' thing has been creaking badly for years. It's the sole justification on which almost all of this hangs; the reason for expecting women to suck up disadvantage, oppression and harm in the name of righting some perceived held and massively unfair advantage over male born people.

Which is almost exactly the same as MRA thinking if you check the MRA sites and stated grievances against women, and also goes hand in hand with the same view you often see explained of this 'pampered' class, (see the highly misogynist comments often on national newspapers about they never had to go and fight in wars did they? and they get to swan about fussing over hairstyles with kids while men have to go to work to support them and take time off work to pop out kids while expecting to get the same pay and on and on). However when privilege is mentioned in this context, it often seems to move over into resentment of women who are perceived as getting to have and do the things envied by males who feel restricted by gender stereotypes, and of unfairly 'gatekeeping' and 'refusing membership' to the desired things.

The 'privilege' line when you see it expressed in arguments seems to translate as a belief that female people owe males, that their suffering and surrendering their unfair 'benefits' rights this perceived wrong of them having by birthright what some males may perceive as rightfully theirs and denied to them, (please test this yourself by reading such arguments) and it often tips over into a near sadistic wishing to see punishment for the crime of being born female.

It is almost always (again please test this for yourself) based on a male view of what a male may perceive women to be, with the focus therefore only on the parts of womanhood of personal interest and relevance, which is why any mention of the realities of being born with female biology, oppression and disadvantage of such biology, is dismissed and laughed at. The quoted philosopher on a thread a while back (I can't find the link) commented that many men see women as 'terra nullis' - there is nothing there except what men project upon it, and colonising it merely puts something useful and relevant where there was nothing before.

As explained by a TW in a thread recently here (to paraphrase) if you believe you're somehow oppressed then there's no point in trying to talk to you.

I often think Freud would have found all of this very interesting. Particularly the expressed desire often seen within the 'privilege' argument to see things taken from females as a form of redress, the expressed feeling sometimes seen that it is better that such things are lost and no one has it than that females should be allowed to have something they haven't been made to share, and as often expressed on Twitter (many screenshots existing), the desire to hurt and harm, so many of which seem to be expressed with sexual content and thought behind it.

I've been thinking about this a lot this half term Michelle. I've been taking the kids out and about to places which have previously had single sex toilet provision, but post Covid have converted the facilities to unisex. Without fail they're smellier, messier and it's awkward waiting in small spaces with, sometimes very large, men. I think there are men who dislike doing this too, dislike the mess and the awkwardness and are probably happier in/envy the women's facilities. I certainly think a PP on this thread sees women as having privilege across the board and wants to either access that perceived privilege or level it. I think there are others who would buy into the idea that more unpleasant unisex facilities for everyone = only fair (to men).

Sorry OP didn't want to get onto loos on this thread. It's been well and truly detailed already and I think it's worth thinking about motivations based on previous posts.

Sorry OP didn't want to get onto loos on this thread. It's been well and truly detailed already and I think it's worth thinking about motivations based on previous posts

I cant post it or I will.probably get deleted.

But yes, we realky do need to look into who benefits, and do a little Google on some of the people who are either really vocal about removing the rights to single sex facilities and/or actually positioned themselves to be able to have an influence over the regs.

It won't surprise you, I'll say that much

Transwomen aren't 'other women'

Also, male born prisoners wanting to dress as women, bears zero correlation to women wearing dresses.

I wonder, how many women in prison wear dresses and makeup?

I watched a program a while back and while it was obviously just a snapshot the women were predominantly wearing tracksuit bottoms, jeans or leggings and hoodies or jumpers. I don’t recall seeing much makeup.

Perhaps we’re veering (again) into what males think makes a woman versus the reality of being a woman.