Man denied German citizenship for refusing to shake woman's hand

[TweeBree]

Curious as to the general opinion on this? Previously, I think I would have sympathised with the immigrant. But now being more aware of how women are discriminated against, I support it 100%.

Excerpt:

A German court ruled on Friday that a Muslim man who refused to shake the hand of a woman should not receive German citizenship.

The 40-year-old Lebanese doctor, who came to Germany in 2002, said he refuses to shake women's hands for religious reasons.

The Administrative Court of Baden-Württemberg (VGH) ruled that someone who rejects a handshake due to a "fundamentalist conception of culture and values" because they see women as "a danger of sexual temptation" was thereby rejecting "integration into German living conditions."

The doctor studied medicine in Germany and now works as a senior physician in a clinic. He applied for citizenship through naturalization in 2012, for which he signed a declaration of loyalty to the German constitution and against extremism. He passed the naturalization test with the best possible score.

Nevertheless, he was not granted citizenship because he refused to shake hands with the responsible official when the naturalization certificate was handed over in 2015. The woman therefore withheld the certificate and rejected the application.

The court said that it made no difference that the man has now declared he will not shake hands with men either.

The man claimed he wanted to affirm the equality of men and women, but the court found that this was merely a tactical move.

Full article: www.dw.com/en/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/a-55311947

How can a man that won’t shake hands with a woman e a doctor?

I support it 100%. Surely he must touch women as a doctor?

So he'll touch women as a doctor where he is in a position of power, but not shake hands which is about showing respect to the other person.

Congratulations to that official for withholding the certificate.

@Sittinbythesea

How can a man that won’t shake hands with a woman e a doctor?

Maybe he only touches men???

I heard of a similar case years ago, but in Switzerland.
Found it:

www.express.co.uk/news/world/1005215/switzerland-citizenship-shake-hands-islam-muslims-interview
and:
tribune.com.pk/story/1087739/switzerland-halts-citizenship-process-for-muslim-students-family

But I think the "not shaking women's hands" thing is an individual and not in any way prescribed. I know quite a few Muslims who do so and a couple who have become German citizens; and quite a few others who shake women's hands and even hug them platonically.

Surely he touches women when examining

This is from another article on the subject:

Abdel-Hakim Ourghi, who directs an institute for Islamic theology and religious education in Freiburg, told DW that there is no religious justification for men to refuse to shake hands with women.

"In the entire Koran, there is no line that prohibits a man from greeting a woman he doesn't know," Ourghi said. "Greeting each other by shaking hands is a sign of respect. Refusing it is a sign of contempt."

Ourghi believes that any bans on shaking women's hands have been invented to preserve male dominance.

"If we accept such behavior, it would be a sign that conservative Islam was on the rise," Ourghi said. "And that would be grave in a Western civilization where we have rules that count for everybody."

www.dw.com/en/refused-berlin-handshake-religious-freedom-or-sexism/a-19400752

I suspect it was a power play towards the official when he thought he was home free.

Well done to that woman and I must say it really is a novelty for me that her country has backed her.

I believe the same thing happened in France with a Muslim woman. It was right at the end of the process too when she wouldn't shake the official's hand.

*male official

These women and their temptress ways that no man should be expected to be able to resist.

I find the whole concept utterly insulting to my sex and I’m glad she withheld the certificate. Non integration is a huge problem in many countries.

I'm really torn on this tbh.

I mean its really disrespectful and i dont think i would want to be examined by a dr who holds such views about women.

But then I dont think anyone should be forced to touch anyone they don't consent to either...

I don’t know. I believe in freedom of religion but not shaking a woman’s hand just because they are a woman pisses me right off.

I also think it’s pointless dragging out an “authority” on Islam as there are so many different types.

There was a lot of emphasis on the handshake being entrenched in German culture and that it had a legal meaning, that it symbolises the conclusion of a contract, you shake hands to agree on something. Also that equality is a huge part of their culture too.

The very root of this seems to be that once he was denied he played the system and said he wouldn't shake hands with men either. The judge felt he just said that to get his citizenship.

Sorry the very root of this seems to be his belief on the status of women in society. He trained as a doctor in Germany, does that mean he has never examined a woman, ever?

They’ve decided his culture doesn’t align with their culture.

To be honest I think that’s fair enough.

Good!

Does he only attend to male patients in the clinic? How did he manage to study medicine and get to the level of senior physician and not touch a female patient at some point? Very bizarre.

As an immigrant myself who gained British citizenship, I do think it's important to integrate with certain fundamental values of the country you decide to adopt as your home. Naturalisation is a conscious decision and not a mere formality.

In European culture, men and women are viewed as equal and the shaking of hands is considered to be part of the normal, respectful exchange between people, irrespective of background, sex, ethnicity etc.

I've been very disappointed in certain liberal types who don't seem bothered by immigrants or religious groups refusing to integrate on some level into the culture where they live. I don't think it bodes well for social cohesion and long-term stability of a country if certain segments are allowed to disrespect fundamental cultural values. The recent horrifying beheading in France is a sad reflection of the direction things are moving in.

I understand there is a balance to be struck in respecting individual preferences and personal beliefs, but a number of years ago certain Islamist groups were going around UK universities 'debating' issues on Islam with atheists and Ex-Muslims. These groups were trying to enforce sex segregation in the conference halls!! Like you would turn up to this public event in a public institution with your mates or partner and there would be a sign at the door directing men to go one way and women the other so that the audience was segregated by sex because these Islamists and their followers didn't want to be seated next to a woman, and claimed they wouldn't go ahead with the event if they weren't allowed to do this. Like wtf?! This isn't a mosque, this is a normal British university. What were the uni administrators thinking? They should have told them (politely) to fuck off.
I'm glad I wasn't at one of these events because I'd struggle to not make one hell of a stink about it. I think thankfully some people did kick up a massive fuss, but a lot of white liberals were being coy and hesitant to properly address such tactics head on. It was ironic that Ex-Muslims and some secular Muslims had to stand up and defend British values while there was a lot of hand wringing from many white 'liberals' feeling timid to confront such flagrant disrespect of our cultural values.
Certain types of extremist groups love to push boundaries and play on identity politics to see how much they can get away with and to stoke animosity and tension because they know the 'liberals' will shy away from such confrontations due to 'white guilt' and it will irritate and enrage those seeing British / European values being disrespected and not defended.

Anyway not trying to draw any equivalence with this doctor, but it was my very long-winded way of saying I think it was the correct decision.

I agree with the decision to deny citizenship.
Hand shaking is a big deal in Germanic culture (pre-COVID), much more than in the U.K.
The point is that he is free to hold his own beliefs but he needs to show respect to a female official regardless of these beliefs. The same respect he would gladly show a male official.

He’s an extremist who has no respect for the cultural norms, or half the citizens, of his adopted country,
Bollocks to him. 🤷‍♀️

"If we accept such behavior, it would be a sign that conservative Islam was on the rise," Ourghi said. "And that would be grave in a Western civilization where we have rules that count for everybody."

Absolutely. Muslims come in all types - from secular, liberal ones who completely respect fundamental values of Western civilization to hardcore Islamist types who are absolutely opposed to such values, especially in terms of equality between women and men.
There should be a baseline that everyone is expected to follow. Once you start making exceptions, it opens up more boundary pushing and undermines the concept that we are all equal and should be treated as equals.

Shaking hands is entrenched in German society literally everyone does it. From the official’s POV, I imagine she felt he was saying my values are more important than the values of this country; the country, which I am petitioning to adopt me.

@Flaunch

They’ve decided his culture doesn’t align with their culture.

To be honest I think that’s fair enough.

Perfect!

Would that mean that Germany wouldn’t give citizenship to Orthodox Jewish men? (unless they were specifically entitled to citizenship by descent).

The man in this news story seems to have been basically making up his own rules - does that make it worse than if he was adhering to an actual religious law?

I think it's fair enough as his values are not aligned with Germany's, but the man must be fuming about the timing of this - had this happened a few months later no-one would be expecting anyone to shake hands with anyone due to coronavirus!

It would be interesting to see how a corresponding case in the UK could go with the Equality Act 2010.