Man denied German citizenship for refusing to shake woman's hand

[TweeBree]

Curious as to the general opinion on this? Previously, I think I would have sympathised with the immigrant. But now being more aware of how women are discriminated against, I support it 100%.

Excerpt:

A German court ruled on Friday that a Muslim man who refused to shake the hand of a woman should not receive German citizenship.

The 40-year-old Lebanese doctor, who came to Germany in 2002, said he refuses to shake women's hands for religious reasons.

The Administrative Court of Baden-Württemberg (VGH) ruled that someone who rejects a handshake due to a "fundamentalist conception of culture and values" because they see women as "a danger of sexual temptation" was thereby rejecting "integration into German living conditions."

The doctor studied medicine in Germany and now works as a senior physician in a clinic. He applied for citizenship through naturalization in 2012, for which he signed a declaration of loyalty to the German constitution and against extremism. He passed the naturalization test with the best possible score.

Nevertheless, he was not granted citizenship because he refused to shake hands with the responsible official when the naturalization certificate was handed over in 2015. The woman therefore withheld the certificate and rejected the application.

The court said that it made no difference that the man has now declared he will not shake hands with men either.

The man claimed he wanted to affirm the equality of men and women, but the court found that this was merely a tactical move.

Full article: www.dw.com/en/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/a-55311947

But then I dont think anyone should be forced to touch anyone they don't consent to either...

I think hand shaking is a bit different to other contact, it is a show of respect, it used to show that you were unarmed, or at least you
didn't have a sword in your hand.

Withholding a handshake is quite a big thing. Oz PM Scott Morrison's visit to fire damaged areas humiliated him because of the number of people who wouldn't shake hands.

Good he doesn't share the liberal values of his country. Sexism has no place in society including groups who claim it for religious reasons.

Withholding a handshake is quite a big thing. Oz PM Scott Morrison's visit to fire damaged areas humiliated him because of the number of people who wouldn't shake hands

I was a bit ‘oooh harsh’ when i read the title, but actually the withholding handshake thing is, as sashh Says, A big deal

Massives of western films and movies and news reports show it as being a method of showing someone how very little you think of them

If you change the sentence slightly to replace the word woman with a person of a particular ethnicity or race, then this wouldn’t even be up for discussion.
If racism wouldn’t be accepted why should sexism? Religious beliefs are no excuse for sexism.

Excellent outcome.

I agree with Flaunch and Nonnymouse.

I'd also think that a person who feels 'tempted' by hand shaking has no place being a doctor.

His views behind it are the problem. Right that he shouldn't get citizenship but more importantly, he shouldn't be allowed to practice medicine as his religious views will bar him from providing women the treatment we require. If he won't shake a hand, he's not going to touch a lump on a womans breast to examine it etc...

This happened to me once, five years ago. He was a dermatologist! He would touch his female patients, but only while wearing gloves.
I felt so uncomfortable standing there with my outstretched hand and him refusing to take it. There should be no place for this kind of discriminatory behaviour, shaking hands is a fundamental part of western culture intended to show respect. We even shake hands with someone we find physically repulsive when the social rules require it.
I can't help but feel delighted about this court ruling!

Glad to see it. And sexist doctors give me the chills. I fear for their female patients.

@DrDavidBanner

I agree with Flaunch and Nonnymouse.

I'd also think that a person who feels 'tempted' by hand shaking has no place being a doctor.

This.

@Mummyoflittledragon

Shaking hands is entrenched in German society literally everyone does it. From the official’s POV, I imagine she felt he was saying my values are more important than the values of this country; the country, which I am petitioning to adopt me.

...and they do it all the time, whenever they meet again! As an immigrant (to Germany) myself I believe absolutely that when in Rome do as the Romans do. I made every effort to adapt to the society, even though in many ways it was the very opposite to my own "native" culture. And I got citizenship, even though back then no shaking of hands was required! So I agree with the decision to deny him citizenship.

This is up there with those other inadequate men who won't sit next to a woman on an aeroplane.

Wankers.

@LearnedResponse

Would that mean that Germany wouldn’t give citizenship to Orthodox Jewish men? (unless they were specifically entitled to citizenship by descent).

The man in this news story seems to have been basically making up his own rules - does that make it worse than if he was adhering to an actual religious law?

I was wondering this. I recall a budget airline (easyJet?) was in the news a while back for forcing a woman to move seats to accommodate an orthodox Jewish man who didn't want to sit next to her on religious grounds. On that basis one would've thought shaking hands between sexes may be prohibited too?

His behaviour in incompatible with their culture and values. Good for them.

I wouldn’t be offended by someone not wanting to shake my hand and I wouldn’t take it personally if I discovered their stance was due to religious beliefs. You can tell by a person’s whole demeanour whether they are respectful or grateful. Particular gestures or words shouldn’t be required. People shouldn’t be forced to touch other people and there are many reasons why a person may not want to. I’m not convinced that religious belief is objectively more offensive than hygiene reasons, especially if a person shows respect in another way, such as a slight bow or a ‘namaste’-style greeting. My experience in the UK is confusion, annoyance and even hostility when behaviour is different from what is expected, which makes me wonder about the experience of some people who are disabled but not obviously disabled.

I think that communicating with one’s face and showing one’s face when speaking to someone is a central part of European culture, certainly Western European culture. In fact, lack of eye contact is often considered rude or shady, which is not the case in many parts of Africa and Asia. Add into that the security issues with burkhas and niqabs, and they need to be completely banned in public spaces before we start forcing people to perform particular gestures to indicate respect.

(I know someone will probably mention the current mask requirements due to COVID but these are not a valid argument against banning the face veil. Firstly, they still allow the eyes to be shown, which is the most important bit for connecting with people, and they are usually the most honest part of the face anyway. Secondly, masks have been introduced to prevent deaths and serious illness in a time of a pandemic and they are a temporary measure that was brought in after a lot of consideration, and in the UK, a lot of hesitation.)

I worked in the NHS and the Muslim men would never have shook our hands because they don’t touch women outside of their family.
They shook each other’s hands.
It never bothered me.
It wasn’t personal.

I have always found it difficult to reconcile the treatment of women on religious grounds and discrimination of that religion. In the UK we have EA and any of those protected characteristics can be in conflict. Shaking hands is not part of the Koran, it is not a religious requirement.

How, has touching women come into the argument? I think this is all about handshakes which is viewed as a masculine thing in some cultures and therefore refusing to shake a women's hand is definitely discriminatory against women.

It's standard in Islam. You can't tell for sure when a woman is bleeding so avoid contact such as handshakes. Not accepting that seems to me to be a discrimination against the doctor. I imagine German people are capable of accepting religious and cultural differences in everyday life.

I have a friend who has recently become a British citizen, he had to do a test that included knowledge of how much a stamp costs in this country. Compared to that this is sanilty.

I used to work regularly with some Orthodox Jewish men.. I absolutely hated their not shaking my hand when we were introduced. It’s about attitudes to women in both religions and I find neither acceptable.

I think many of you would find that many muslim women (myself included) also do not shake hands with men, it is not just men not shaking hands with women, I always put my hand on my chest with respect and greet politely if I feel the other person is taken aback or offended i will explain that it is a personal choice due to my beliefs
in terms of treating female or Male patients this is permissible as it is a necessity

@charlestonchaplin, @Hailtomyteeth and @Coffeecak3 if they refused to shake your hand because of your ethnicity or sexual orientation, would it bother you?

I wonder what the response here would have been if a woman refused to shake a man’s hand for religious reasons?

And in response to the comment by sashh that ‘Withholding a handshake is quite a big thing’, I think that that is a statement that people should be free to make without censure. Or as people often say on Mumsnet FWR, people should be free to define their own boundaries.

Think some of you should maybe consider whether you are coming from a position of prejudice. Man plus Muslim equals...

Very religious Muslim men always seem to get a bad rep for this but they are not the only ones. Orthodox Jewish men will also refuse to touch women who are not their wives and in some very religious: Hasidic communities refuse to even make eye contact and look at them or speak to them.
I once had an appointment with a Hasidic orthodox Jewish man who turned his back to me the whole interview (I was the professional) and only spoke to me “through” his wife. He was very open about it being because I was a woman.
When I tried to complain to my agency, I was told that such circumstances were exempt from being sexist discrimination because it was his religion