Man denied German citizenship for refusing to shake woman's hand

[TweeBree]

Curious as to the general opinion on this? Previously, I think I would have sympathised with the immigrant. But now being more aware of how women are discriminated against, I support it 100%.

Excerpt:

A German court ruled on Friday that a Muslim man who refused to shake the hand of a woman should not receive German citizenship.

The 40-year-old Lebanese doctor, who came to Germany in 2002, said he refuses to shake women's hands for religious reasons.

The Administrative Court of Baden-Württemberg (VGH) ruled that someone who rejects a handshake due to a "fundamentalist conception of culture and values" because they see women as "a danger of sexual temptation" was thereby rejecting "integration into German living conditions."

The doctor studied medicine in Germany and now works as a senior physician in a clinic. He applied for citizenship through naturalization in 2012, for which he signed a declaration of loyalty to the German constitution and against extremism. He passed the naturalization test with the best possible score.

Nevertheless, he was not granted citizenship because he refused to shake hands with the responsible official when the naturalization certificate was handed over in 2015. The woman therefore withheld the certificate and rejected the application.

The court said that it made no difference that the man has now declared he will not shake hands with men either.

The man claimed he wanted to affirm the equality of men and women, but the court found that this was merely a tactical move.

Full article: www.dw.com/en/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/a-55311947

This is the kind of thing that would never happen in "so woke we're regressive" britain.

You are completely missing the point.

If a woman didn't shake a man's hand, she should also be denied citizenship? It's a handshake... Can't remember the last time I even shook hands with someone.

A handshake to seal a deal is a known aspect of German culture. German shake hands with people they work with, are friends with, meet for meals, do business with every time they meet.Even school children shaking hands with their friends at school every morning is just normal

Well that's just weird.

You are also confusing the fact that for the most part anyone born in a country is automatically a citizen.

I suspect the person who wrote it meant "anyone born in a country with parents who are already citizens". Their point was that most people don't apply for citizenship as an active choice.

Anyone who does choose to move to another country and then chooses to become a citizen can reasonably be expected to agree to follow standard local practices.

"Even school children shaking hands with their friends at school every morning is just normal"

I spent 13 years at school in Germany and I don't think I ever shook hands with any of my classmates.

I think it's weird. He doesn't want to shake hands with a woman, so he cannot be German? How many German citizens are racist, misogynist, rapists, peados, think gay people are less than?

You do realise that having citizenship taken away is illegal (unless they have another citizenship, which is the minority of Germans)? And that being born into a citizenship is a completely different thing to requesting it and agreeing to abide by the laws and customs of that country? (and then demonstrating in a particularly crass way that you, in fact, have no intention of doing so)

If a woman didn't shake a man's hand, she should also be denied citizenship? It's a handshake... Can't remember the last time I even shook hands with someone.

YY to it being applied to a woman, and likely would be because the civil service at least pay a little more than lip-service to equality.

Many people on this thread (German, new-German and non-German with experience of the country) have explained several times that hand-shaking is a deeply ingrained German custom. Not sure about pp just above who hasn't experienced it at school - i guess they're a lot younger than me. Because in my youth it was definitely a thing (not 100% of people 100% of the time, but definitely a thing, especially when being introduced for the first time to a friendship group)

The man’s reasoning is highly misogynistic, but how can it be ok to insist people touch to be a citizen? What if a person has autism and the sensory discomfort is unbearable- are they just not allowed to be in the country? What if a person is a survivor of sexual abuse and avoids touching men because of this? What if a person doesn’t have arms- are they going to go through a humiliating and dehumanising act of shaking the person’s shoulder joint? In what way can compelled touch ever be an acceptable thing for any country to demand? We teach children they can always say no to touch that makes them uncomfortable (no matter the reason why) unless it’s a medical emergency or safety requirements, shaking hands is neither. It doesn’t matter if it’s tradition or not, the lottary is an excellent short story about how dangerous and incideous traditions are when we don’t question them. No one should be expected to touch someone they don’t want to, even just shaking hands.

What if the reason he won't shake hands is because he is a sexist man who isn't willing to show respect towards a female official of the country he wishes to becomes citizen of?

All your examples would be a case for special circumstances allowing a slightly different protocol, I have no idea if that would be considered in Germany.

Just to remind you, this man has chosen to apply for citizenship. If you don't like the rules you don't have to apply.

@Fffffs- a lot of what if's.
Just to clarify, he was not denied citizenship on simply refusing a handshake, although that was the initial reasoning. And don't forget that he is a doctor, so will touch people all the time.

It was him talking the refusal of citizenship it to court, and an subsequent investigation of his personal beliefs that lead to the decision. (& his reasoning was that he promised his jealous wife not to shake other women's hands!)

If any of your "what if"s" would have been the case, I like to think the outcome would have been very different.

Are you comparing disabilities to misogyny? Reads like it.

If we never challenged illogical rules of institutions or countries none of us would ever turn up to this board. If we accept rules that take away liberties then what happens when all countries have these? No countries left for any of us to choose from.

By your logic we should just accept self id reforms then emigrate to a country that doesn’t have self id? And then again a few months later when that countries laws change? And so on. Feel free to replace self id with any law you feel is right- no need for Irish women to fight for autonomy over their bodies just jump over here, because it’s that easy. Women who live in countries where marital rape is legal- well silly them for not choosing a better country.

Millions of people flee to ‘safer’ countries all over the world. Maybe they don’t have other choices, maybe no other countries are safer or accessible and they don’t have the luxury of money to provide them choice. Any rules that apply to this man apply to them also.

There should not be an exception made for this man, the rules should be scrapped that say anyone must touch another person unwillingly period. Again, read the lottary.

This will affect women. It may well affect more women than men, as women may feel that their honour is at stake. Perhaps giving a sign of respect / thanks - eg bowing - would be a reasonable compromise.

By your logic we should just accept self id reforms then emigrate to a country that doesn’t have self id?

Are you procrastinating from boring jobs as well? That's why I am here.

It's one thing to argue about laws and conventions in the country you live in. Where did anyone suggest emigrating?

It's quite another to move to another country, build a life there, apply for citizenship stating you support the existing culture and then blatantly refuse to take part in that culture during the citizenship process.

And shaking hands as a greeting strikes me as a very simple method of greeting people. We don't want to end up with loads of people not able to cope with normal interactions.

@DuckingMad

A handshake to seal a deal is a known aspect of German culture. German shake hands with people they work with, are friends with, meet for meals, do business with every time they meet.Even school children shaking hands with their friends at school every morning is just normal

Well that's just weird.

And your comment is a bit racist.

@Fffffs your post is ridiculous. Have you read the thread?

The point isn't that he refused to shake a hand - the point is that this revealed the incompatibility of his deeper beliefs with German citizenship as established by the courts. Even after appeal.

Ime a lot of Muslims don't want to shake hands with the opposite sex. So their form of Islam is incompatible with living in Germany? I expect that now that this case has happened, most Muslims will shake hands on that occasion only, and then never again.

Once again, refusing the handshake was what got the ball rolling, but there were a lot more issues, hence why he was refused citizenship.
If anyone can read German, the judgement link posted earlier is quite conclusive.
His wife is already a German citizen so they should have known what to expect. He also had indefinite leave to remain in Germany and his wife has German citizenship, so he will not be asked to leave.

@Fffffs

The man’s reasoning is highly misogynistic, but how can it be ok to insist people touch to be a citizen? What if a person has autism and the sensory discomfort is unbearable- are they just not allowed to be in the country? What if a person is a survivor of sexual abuse and avoids touching men because of this? What if a person doesn’t have arms- are they going to go through a humiliating and dehumanising act of shaking the person’s shoulder joint? In what way can compelled touch ever be an acceptable thing for any country to demand? We teach children they can always say no to touch that makes them uncomfortable (no matter the reason why) unless it’s a medical emergency or safety requirements, shaking hands is neither. It doesn’t matter if it’s tradition or not, the lottary is an excellent short story about how dangerous and incideous traditions are when we don’t question them. No one should be expected to touch someone they don’t want to, even just shaking hands.

You don't think much of the German people, do you?

An autistic person would be accommodated appropriately.

A survivor of abuse would be accommodated appropriately.

As would anyone else who had a non-discriminatory reason for refusing a handshake.

The official in this case didn't deny him citizenship because he wouldn't shake her hand. She denied him after he said he doesn't shake hands with women. And two instances of German courts agreed with her assessment that he lied in his citizenship application when he promised to uphold the German constitution which makes such discriminatory practices against women in public life unlawful.

Btw, a person with no arms would not be expected to shake a hand they do not have if they didn't want to (but having met Germans who cannot shake hands in the normal way, they would have been very upset had I not shaken hands with them in whatever way they could.)

You don't seem to understand that almost all Germans want to shake hands and not being offered a handshake is seen as exclusionary, discriminatory and rude. It's not just tradition that's been passed down through the ages and therefore seen as antediluvian, but widespread and common practice in daily use, amongst men and women, young and old, educated and uneducated and no matter whether it's a meeting with family, friends, acquaintances, colleagues or strangers.

I wasn't overly impressed that a man refused to shake my hand on the basis of his religion, but shook hands with my male colleague. Either shake with everyone or no-one.

Although coronavirus might have put an end to the handshake.

It's an interesting question. Would there be an issue of indirect religious discrimination in the UK? So everybody is required to shake the official's hand. This adversely affects certain Muslims because of their beliefs. They are, from their perspective, being required to break a religious rule.
The Muslims I've spent time with (this is of course a small sample) have been very focused on following rules - issues arise multiple times a day. For example at a birthday party refusing sweets because they may contain gelatine, and asking whether the birthday cake has alcohol in it.
I knew a family with several children at a Church of England primary school. All the children were expelled when the Head noticed that they had taken the picture off their school sweatshirts. The mum told me that having a picture on clothing was against Islam. Not breaking this "rule" was so important to them that they were prepared to have their children excluded from the school. Other Muslim families were prepared to wear the sweatshirts.

As those of us who can understand German and have read the ruling posted on the thread have said - the handshake thing is a red herring really, as it was only the clue that provoked the further investigation.

There are many Muslims in Germany and many who have gained citizenship even though they follow Islam. So there must be an accommodation for that, don't you think?

Some Muslims are stricter about these things than others. I imagine that some of the stricter ones might make an exception for getting citizenship (on that one occasion only, perhaps).

I know it has been repeated several times: The refusal to shake hands was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

There were several other issues that meant that the court had reasonable doubt about this man's intentions to adhere to the German constitution. (See point 52 in the ruling)

They believed that any assurance of this man that he would avow to the free democratic basic order of the Federal Republic of Germany would be only lip service.

The ruling linked in this thread is of the Verwaltungsgericht Stuttgart (first instance) and was upheld on appeal by the Verwaltungsgerichtshof Baden-Württemberg in Mannheim, which handled the appeal.

The claimant has the right to appeal to the highest court for administrative matters, which, I believe, is in Leipzig.

In Germany law and constitution come before religion. One example is weddings: Getting married in Church before having a civil ceremony is only allowed in extenuating circumstances (for example if one of the spouses is terminally ill) otherwise couples have to get married in a civil ceremony first before having an optional religious wedding.
Marriages that have only been made in a religious ceremony without the civil part are not recognised before the law.
Marriages