Man denied German citizenship for refusing to shake woman's hand

[TweeBree]

Curious as to the general opinion on this? Previously, I think I would have sympathised with the immigrant. But now being more aware of how women are discriminated against, I support it 100%.

Excerpt:

A German court ruled on Friday that a Muslim man who refused to shake the hand of a woman should not receive German citizenship.

The 40-year-old Lebanese doctor, who came to Germany in 2002, said he refuses to shake women's hands for religious reasons.

The Administrative Court of Baden-Württemberg (VGH) ruled that someone who rejects a handshake due to a "fundamentalist conception of culture and values" because they see women as "a danger of sexual temptation" was thereby rejecting "integration into German living conditions."

The doctor studied medicine in Germany and now works as a senior physician in a clinic. He applied for citizenship through naturalization in 2012, for which he signed a declaration of loyalty to the German constitution and against extremism. He passed the naturalization test with the best possible score.

Nevertheless, he was not granted citizenship because he refused to shake hands with the responsible official when the naturalization certificate was handed over in 2015. The woman therefore withheld the certificate and rejected the application.

The court said that it made no difference that the man has now declared he will not shake hands with men either.

The man claimed he wanted to affirm the equality of men and women, but the court found that this was merely a tactical move.

Full article: www.dw.com/en/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/a-55311947

@charlestonchaplin perhaps some of us know lots of liberal Muslims who would have no problem with shaking hands with someone of the opposite sex. Male or female, my response is the same.

@Hailtomyteeth it’s not standard with any of the Muslim men I know. IMO it’s quite an extreme position

I wonder how deeply entrenched this 'not touching women' is?
If he saw a women fall over in the street, would he not try to catch her or refuse to help her up?
Would he refuse to rescue a women from a fire?
Would he refuse to sit next to a woman on public transport?

The practicalities of living your life like this seem a right pain even if we ignore everything else.

@charlestonchaplin, @Hailtomyteeth and @Coffeecak3 if they refused to shake your hand because of your ethnicity or sexual orientation, would it bother you?

No, because whether or not they are forced to shake my hand, they would still have those beliefs and they would probably find ways to communicate those beliefs to me. In fact they would probably go out of their way to communicate their issues with my race or sexuality because they feel they have been forced to do something against their will.

Their views about my race or my sexuality would sadden me, but a polite refusal to shake my hand because of those views wouldn’t upset me even more or offend me.

I don’t believe that people should be able to behave however they like to others because of race or sexuality or sex, but I believe that the bar for the intervention by the State should be relatively high, so intimidation or assault, for example. Also, it is one thing to prohibit behaviour and quite another thing to compel behaviour

Thehollyandtheirony

@charlestonchaplin perhaps some of us know lots of liberal Muslims who would have no problem with shaking hands with someone of the opposite sex. Male or female, my response is the same.

The beauty of a tolerant society is that we are all free to take our own positions. We don’t have to do things the way other people do. I don’t find the UK to be very tolerant these days though.

@Coffeecak3

I worked in the NHS and the Muslim men would never have shook our hands because they don’t touch women outside of their family. They shook each other’s hands. It never bothered me. It wasn’t personal.

But a doctor? How could he not touch women during his training?

I wonder if they would withdraw citizenship from a German citizen who refused to shake hands for any reason?

@KenDodd
I think it is important to educate ones self on these issues
where there is a necessity ofcourse a muslim man or woman would touch the opposite gender to help them
but merely shaking hands because society says you should does not mean they should be forced to do so

I wonder what the response here would have been if a woman refused to shake a man’s hand for religious reasons?

If she was at a citizenship ceremony and refused to shake the hand of a male official who was presenting her naturalisation certificate? Yes, same standards should apply. As I said, citizenship is a choice that involves a level of demonstrating integration into the culture and respect for certain customs. No one is being asked to eat a ham sandwich.

@Whatwouldscullydo

I'm really torn on this tbh.

I mean its really disrespectful and i dont think i would want to be examined by a dr who holds such views about women.

But then I dont think anyone should be forced to touch anyone they don't consent to either...

Same here.

I really dislike shaking hands. I really don’t like the feeling of someone’s palm in my palm. ( except my kids) I didn’t even hold hands with exdh.

Japanese people only ( begrudgingly) started to shake hands when having to deal with western business people. It’s really not in their culture to shake hands. Why does every one have to bend to western culture. What if the official wanted an Italian kiss on both cheeks? I wouldn’t want some bloke slobbering over my face - would I been seen as disrespectful if I said not a chance?’

Also Orthodox Jews don’t shake hands either. It’s not just Muslims.

As a Muslim woman I don't have any unnecessary contact with men, so I wouldn't have shaken hands either. When cases like this are presented in the media it is always given a "disrespectful to women" slant when it is nothing of the sort. As an autonomous individual I have a problem with being told that I must physically touch someone in order to respect them. I once had an argument with a man (over one of these media cases) and he stated that you must adopt the customary greetings of your host country. I asked him if he was visiting certain African tribes (he's a missionary so travels widely) would he object to having his testicles squeezed as per custom? No, of course not, he replied, that isn't my custom
FWIW if Germany had a law which stated that in order to gain citizenship then you must shake hands then it's fair enough that they didn't award him with it.

I think it's an interesting one. I no longer hold to the beliefs inherent in covering yourself as a woman, and I will argue against them actively, but if a Christian, Jewish or Muslim woman still covers, I am not in favour of compulsion and punishment for refusing to do so.

I concur with others that this hand shaking refusal practice is sexist and I disagree with it, but there are many small cross-cultural practices which cause offence for different reasons, and if someone is in a situation where it is an issue, a person must act according to their conscience.

This man judged that his belief was more important to him, and if he'd have stuck to his principle there, I'd probably have more respect. The fact that he's tried to wheedle out of it afterwards does make me think he's behaving rather contemptously towards his chosen country, which won't have helped his case.

So, my slightly fence sitting response is, yes, this practice, like so many religious practices, is sexist and disrespectful at base and I disagree with it. However, I cannot agree that someone should be compelled to act against their conscience in a fair secular multicultural society.

If he's been denied citizenship because the authorities believed him to be a sexist, and they are concerned with ensuring the fair and equal treatment of women in Germany, then I think I'd feel it was more clear cut. But actually, I have a little bit of pause, because I'm quite sure there are many sexist men native to Germany, and this does squeak a little bit of 'foreigners and their unwelcome ways', rather than a fight against sexist attitudes.

Apparently Germany doesn’t recognise Scientology as a religion and that’s fair enough. I think as a state they are right to question what constitutes as a religion.

If they are trying to be a more inclusive state and are trying to move forward in such a way then I think it’s fair enough to question why a man would chose not to shake a woman’s hand. Could be perceived as he’s discriminating against her because she’s a woman.

Live and let live imo regarding religion, especially if it’s not harming anyone, but I can see why religious views that are outdated, sexist etc in this day and age could be a problem.

Good on the official, it annoys me so much. Business is business - ive been coordinating contracts when there's 4 or 5 people involved, after signing everyone shakes hands except mine because I'm female despite the fact I was in charge (don't get me started on the times men refused to deal with me, thankfully my boss told them to get lost!). It's a major cultural issue and time "community leaders" persuaded those who choose to live in the U.K. whether immigrants or second/third generation born here that shaking a woman's hand or seeing her face doesn't have anything to do with sex! My biggest customer is Muslim (born in Bangladesh) and he asks me honest questions about cultural matters and admits he can't understand how my h "let's" me wear clothes where other men can see so much, he can't get his head around it (I've never told him about sunbathing!) lovely man but so different to me, we agree to disagree politely

Lucky that the official just happened to be a woman.

@MoonJelly it would never have made news headlines as no one would have cared.

I'm very torn by this. I have always respected a individual not shaking hands because I don't think it necessarily indicates misogyny at an individual level. I look for evidence in their whole demeanour and behaviours.

Hand shaking is quite interesting as a powerplay, remember Trump and the competitive handshake. A man holding my hand just too long would annoy me more.

I tend to think the primacy of agency holds, no one should be forced to do things they're not comfortable with concerning the personal space rule. It's like hugging some people are naturally tactile others hate it.

However, I also think that there needs to be some concession in what is a formal ceremony as a gesture of gratitude(not the right word, acknowledgement?) of taking a respectful step into a different culture. Tolerance is a two way street, it's the absolute rigidity that is the problem. It wouldn't surprise me if there were vibes of arrogance.

There was a case years ago where girls in a school died in a fire because the fire fighters couldn't touch them. I also saw an interview where women fire fighters were being welcomed by the men because of this problem.

To summarise I don't think what happened was wrong in the situation but I'd hate it to become a flashpoint in everday life.

@MoonJelly

I wonder if they would withdraw citizenship from a German citizen who refused to shake hands for any reason?

When you apply for citizenship, you have to have a clean record i.e. no criminal convictions (so speeding tickets, parking fines etc don't count). If you have had a criminal conviction there is a very high chance that your application for citizenship will be denied.

This doesn't mean that no one else in the country commits criminal acts or that born citizens who commit criminal acts will have their citizenship stripped.

Every nation has the right to stipulate terms and conditions on acquiring citizenship. It's not some automatic gift for anyone. There is an expectation to demonstrate willingness to integrate and show respect for the values and culture of the country you are requesting to become a part of. Of course there's no straightforward way to determine this, but nations usually have various criteria like passing language and knowledge tests and so on.

If a nation's culture emphasises certain gestures like hand shaking to be an important part of showing respect for someone in authority and to one another (like bowing in Japan) then refusing to shake hands at the very event when you, as a foreigner, are asking to become a part of your adopted country is not a good look. If you had resided in the country long enough to become a citizen, you should have been aware of these kinds of cultural sentiments.

I am not a fan of monarchy as a principle, but I had to swear allegiance to the Queen as part of becoming a British citizen. (Swearing allegiance to God was optional btw.... )
Had I refused to do so, it would have been right to have denied me citizenship.
I'm still no fan of monarchy, but I would be willing to serve 'Queen and country' if needed and I would never call for the beheading of the Queen etc.

Again, this doesn't mean other british citizens are not free to demonstrate their personal views or preferences about the royal family, but I don't think there's anything wrong per se in nations having certain expectations and conditions as part of granting citizenship.

There is room for discussion or debate obviously, but I do think the ceremonial process around citizenship is an important one and is a way for a country to show new citizens what is expected of them as they swear an oath to become part of that society.

@AgentProvocateur

I support it 100%. Surely he must touch women as a doctor?

I am not defending him (I agree with the German authorities), but it's about avoiding unnecessary touching. A male doctor may touch a female patient in order to examine or treat them (but women should find a female doctor if possible in Islamic guidelines)

The man would now be a German if the official had happened to be male. If this is a big deal, shaking hands should be part of the naturalisation process for everyone. And that should be explained upfront.

And in response to the comment by sashh that ‘Withholding a handshake is quite a big thing’, I think that that is a statement that people should be free to make without censure. Or as people often say on Mumsnet FWR, people should be free to define their own boundaries.

Then find another way to show respect, the military use salutes, as already mentioned a 'Namaste' type greeting a bow / curtsy. As a PP said a hand on the chest.

Just refusing a handshake when it is the norm is down right insulting.

I think that in the particular case of a doctor, who at least during his training would have had to put his hands all over strange women' bodies, the refusal of a ceremonial handshake is particularly marked. I like the German response. I'm not aware of examples of Transgender ideology or identity politics from Germany. Do we have posters in Germany? Are you doing things differently there?

The fact that he's tried to wheedle out of it afterwards does make me think he's behaving rather contemptously towards his chosen country, which won't have helped his case.

Yes, all of a sudden he says he isn't going to shake men's hands either? Yeah right. Stick to your principles with grace at least.

but merely shaking hands because society says you should does not mean they should be forced to do so

No-one is being 'forced' here - the culture into which the man is requesting acceptance puts great store in handshakes. By refusing to participate the man is rejecting the cultural norm so has no grounds to 'force' his acceptance.

A pp complained 'why does everyone have to bend to Western culture' - everyone doesn't - but if you want to participate then it's unreasonable to expect to go against norms and be treated in the same way as a conformist.

I just about remember, long ago, a briefing about interaction with Japanese business - we (western) wanted to sell to a Japanese Corp - we would not have dreamed of not bowing correctly or not respecting the need to build relationships etc. 'when in rome...'

FWIW any religion that discriminates on the basis of sex should itself be discriminated against (loss of charitable status, tax treatment etc) . & that includes Catholicism - when I was a child women had to wear headscarves in church, at least that part of the nonsense has stopped.

I had an Afghan Muslim driving instructor last year who refused to shake my hand. I was pretty offended.