Man denied German citizenship for refusing to shake woman's hand

[TweeBree]

Curious as to the general opinion on this? Previously, I think I would have sympathised with the immigrant. But now being more aware of how women are discriminated against, I support it 100%.

Excerpt:

A German court ruled on Friday that a Muslim man who refused to shake the hand of a woman should not receive German citizenship.

The 40-year-old Lebanese doctor, who came to Germany in 2002, said he refuses to shake women's hands for religious reasons.

The Administrative Court of Baden-Württemberg (VGH) ruled that someone who rejects a handshake due to a "fundamentalist conception of culture and values" because they see women as "a danger of sexual temptation" was thereby rejecting "integration into German living conditions."

The doctor studied medicine in Germany and now works as a senior physician in a clinic. He applied for citizenship through naturalization in 2012, for which he signed a declaration of loyalty to the German constitution and against extremism. He passed the naturalization test with the best possible score.

Nevertheless, he was not granted citizenship because he refused to shake hands with the responsible official when the naturalization certificate was handed over in 2015. The woman therefore withheld the certificate and rejected the application.

The court said that it made no difference that the man has now declared he will not shake hands with men either.

The man claimed he wanted to affirm the equality of men and women, but the court found that this was merely a tactical move.

Full article: www.dw.com/en/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/a-55311947

Yes, but clearly, the handshake was necessary touching as it was part of demonstrating he was becoming a citizen. Again, my discomfort with this is that he would have had no issue shaking the hand of a man, so it is an entirely sexist position to hold, religiously motivated or not.

I don't think anyone should be compelled to touch someone else, obviously, but I do think it's fine to challenge the motivations of those choices in very specific contexts. Like, right now, I don't shake anyone's hand and I suspect I never will again. I'm happy for it to die away as a cultural practice, and if asked why, I would explain that it's for hygiene reasons. That's not unfairly discriminatory.

If this guy had started by saying he never shook hands with anyone, he'd have had a better case, imo. The fact that his base, starting point is that he won't shake a woman's hand is arbitrary and rooted in highly questionable and sexist ideas.

A pp said that if it was made clear that a handshake was part of the conditions of citizenship, then fair enough. Not sure it was though.

I'm now wondering if he would shake the hand of a trans man or a trans woman? How would that go?

Tricky little conundrum for the chap.

@MoonJelly

I wonder if they would withdraw citizenship from a German citizen who refused to shake hands for any reason?

It's not possible to withdraw German citizenship for any reason (possibly for treason in a war situation?) except for taking on a new non-EU citizenship without first asking for official approval.

I have a friend who has recently become a British citizen, he had to do a test that included knowledge of how much a stamp costs in this country. Compared to that this is sanilty.

derail:
I took this test, years ago. The questions were insane; no normal Brit would know some of the answers. Such as, "how many Bangladeshis emigrated to the UK in the year 1996"?

Regardless of whether or not the act is seen as sexist, I can see that the cultural values in this instance clash and that it indicates a conflict in Integration which is the at the root of The naturalisation process. I would be accepting of their beliefs and their choice to follow these practices in day to day life however the person is asking to be granted citizenship, they are not being compelled to do anything, it has simply become apparent that their beliefs are in conflict with the values of the country and so this will not be granted. Removing citizenship is a different question and is (rightly IMO) harder than not giving something.

The enlightenment has brought so much to the Western world and even though we have such a long, long way to go to achieve equality of esteem, (witness the daily online misogyny) it is wonderful when a country stands up for the right to respect of the women of that country. Well done Germany. Imagine if this man decided not to shake hands with Angela Merkel.

As for those trotting out the "well a muslim woman would not shake hands with a man either" - do you never self examine, reflect and use critical thinking on your adherence to certain rules of your religion? I was brought up Catholic but have realised I cannot be both a feminist, believing in the equality of women, and Catholicism. So I have removed myself from the religion. Perhaps wider reading and reflection could encourage some muslim posters to look at how you can believe in the equality of women on this earth and also believe in islam?

Every nation has the right to stipulate terms and conditions on acquiring citizenship.

I agree but any essential terms should be explicitly laid out. It seems very harsh to deny someone citizenship (with all the serious ramifications that may have) at the last minute based on unwritten rules and customs.

This is interesting. There was a thread a while ago when a women said a male muslim colleague would not shake her hand but instead would put his hand over his heart as a greeting to her instead.

A lot of posters were sympathetic to the man and considered the heart gesture to be respectful.

Personally, I can see why the woman in that previous thread was offended. It is because by refusing to shake her hand he is seeing her primarily as a sexual being and not as fellow professional, in the way that he will see his male colleagues. It's quite a public symbol that she is not quite equal. Though of course, I don't know if in every other way he treated her as an equal at work.

Not sure if I agree the man in this thread should be denied citizenship though. I dislike this cultural practice, but denying citizenship is a pretty severe sanction.

A pp said that if it was made clear that a handshake was part of the conditions of citizenship, then fair enough. Not sure it was though.

It's quite likely this was not explicitly part of conditions of citizenship, however, as I mentioned before, if a foreigner (including myself) has lived somewhere long enough to apply for citizenship, they will be quite aware of the importance and significance of certain cultural gestures like handshakes.

There may be room for improvement in the process. When I applied for British citizenship, I had to specify whether I wanted to swear a religious oath or a secular one (couldn't opt out of swearing allegiance to the monarch as that is mandatory). So I couldn't decide on the day whether to accept or refuse a religious oath. People who forgot to tick the relevant box on the application form had to go with the religious oath. Simply skipping it because you didn't like it was not allowed.

Maybe something similar could be used with regards to handshakes - if you do not wish to shake hands, you have to demonstrate your respect for the ceremonial process in another manner, whether bowing or hand on heart etc. But a respectful gesture must be made rather than simply outright refusal.

@charlestonchaplin

Every nation has the right to stipulate terms and conditions on acquiring citizenship.

I agree but any essential terms should be explicitly laid out. It seems very harsh to deny someone citizenship (with all the serious ramifications that may have) at the last minute based on unwritten rules and customs.

Yeah, I actually think I agree here.

And I agree with you Nonny, too.

.. but denying citizenship is a pretty severe sanction.

Why do you think it's severe? It's not like he's going to prison or being deported..

@CeibaTree

I think it's fair enough as his values are not aligned with Germany's, but the man must be fuming about the timing of this - had this happened a few months later no-one would be expecting anyone to shake hands with anyone due to coronavirus!

Exactly what I was thinking.

I lived and worked in France for a while - back in the 90s - and most of my colleagues made a point of shaking hands every day, a couple liked to kiss on the cheeks but that was rare. It was part of the daily ritual.

I took this test, years ago. The questions were insane; no normal Brit would know some of the answers. Such as, "how many Bangladeshis emigrated to the UK in the year 1996"?

Yes the citizenship tests are a joke. They really need to be asking more important things like principles of free speech, equality and so on. Who cares what percentage of Bangladeshis are there etc. That doesn't impact on someone being a good citizen.

Good for her. I agree with their ruling. If he doesn't want to adopt Germany's culture then he doesn't have to live there. It's nice to see officials standing up for women to be treated as equals for a change. It's disrespectful of him to behave like that and religion is just an excuse for this kind of sexism.

I wouldn’t say they made the wrong decision, but what we are now seeeing could also be the start of a slippery slope. Vegetarianism is pretty uncommon in France, perhaps just 2-3%. Eating is a huge kart if French culture, and meat/fish is a big part of that. If a would be citizen refuses the food at his precermony lunch, should he be refused citizenship? Once you move past legal requirements (respect the law, the constitution, etc) and start moving toward cultural beliefs, norms and behaviors where is the line? Should Tim Faron be stripped of his citizenship for apparently considering homosexuality a sin? I understand the decision, but it’s a slippery slope.

It’s great she didn’t hand over the certificate. I’m glad it was backed.

The woman therefore withheld the certificate and rejected the application.

Bloody good on her!! Very glad she’s was supported by not just her employer but her government on this.

Why do you think it's severe? It's not like he's going to prison or being deported

Because he had built up an entire life here? It takes a long time to go through citizenship. He studied medicine in Germnay and worked in practice. He must have been there for a very, very long time. He presumably had a home, as well as work and relationships, as well as all his expectations for his whole future. To suddenly have all that removed is traumatic.

If you cannot see why that is severe then you need to thank yourself everyday to have never been in that situation. I have been and it almost broke me.

I’ve had someone do this to me, I was in a work environment, went to shake his hand as he had done to both men with me, and he firmly put his hands behind his back and declined (politely) saying it’s against his beliefs.

It felt dismissive, humiliating and while I was the senior person in the exchange, belittling. Followed by a “mans” conversation between the men. I respect cultural differences but this does matter, if affects your view of women.

I'm not muslim, but I've lived in a muslim country, where I shook hands with my muslim co-workers, bank employees etc. Where shopping centres were decorated for Christmas, and the muslim checkout staff would happily wish me Merry Christmas (but I had to buy pork or alcohol at a separate till), with my friend's father at her wedding, and many of her friends and relatives etc.

I think that it's less religious, and more cultural, as all of these people I worked with went off for Friday prayers, they just adjusted their expectations and behaviour depending on the circumstances. Professional occasion, meant that I was a colleague.

In fact I've heard of it much more in the UK, than I ever did when living in a country with Islam as the official religion - albeit clearly a progressive country.

Should Tim Faron be stripped of his citizenship for apparently considering homosexuality a sin?

Or gender critical women for refusing to say ' transwomen are women'?

Religion is a choice. Becoming a citizen is a choice. He chose religion over citizenship. Fair enough.

We are a Multicultural society but some of your cultural practices, though perfectly and entirely legal, are incompatible with Our cultural practices. So you can live here (for as long as your presence here is beneficial to us and you keep renewing your visa) but you can never be One of Us. It’s opening a can of worms that’s for sure.

More I think about it, more I’d say it’s a cheap shot. Handshaking wasn’t part of the test - which he’d already passed. If handshaking is an integral part of what it means to be a German citizen then build it into the test next time. He passed the test then they changed the result because he did something they don’t like. Well you better get the behaviour police to monitor your new citizens 24/7 to see if they do something “UnGerman”.

I worked in Kenya briefly and was in a meeting where a Muslim woman refused to shake hands with the men. It was terribly awkward in my opinion, although of course she was used to doing it. I think it is disrespectful if you are working in a culture where touching is the norm, and also a very very conservative interpretation of Islam to assume that even briefly touching the hand of someone of the opposite gender would tempt you...