Man denied German citizenship for refusing to shake woman's hand

[TweeBree]

Curious as to the general opinion on this? Previously, I think I would have sympathised with the immigrant. But now being more aware of how women are discriminated against, I support it 100%.

Excerpt:

A German court ruled on Friday that a Muslim man who refused to shake the hand of a woman should not receive German citizenship.

The 40-year-old Lebanese doctor, who came to Germany in 2002, said he refuses to shake women's hands for religious reasons.

The Administrative Court of Baden-Württemberg (VGH) ruled that someone who rejects a handshake due to a "fundamentalist conception of culture and values" because they see women as "a danger of sexual temptation" was thereby rejecting "integration into German living conditions."

The doctor studied medicine in Germany and now works as a senior physician in a clinic. He applied for citizenship through naturalization in 2012, for which he signed a declaration of loyalty to the German constitution and against extremism. He passed the naturalization test with the best possible score.

Nevertheless, he was not granted citizenship because he refused to shake hands with the responsible official when the naturalization certificate was handed over in 2015. The woman therefore withheld the certificate and rejected the application.

The court said that it made no difference that the man has now declared he will not shake hands with men either.

The man claimed he wanted to affirm the equality of men and women, but the court found that this was merely a tactical move.

Full article: www.dw.com/en/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/a-55311947

I support it.

I think it was the right decision. if he hates women that much he should go and live happily in some sexist hellhole where his views will be the norm.

I looked into this a bit and found an article with comments by a now government minister talking of having encountered handshake-refusers when she was a district mayor doing citizenship ceremonies. Clearly this is something that people have chosen (in the awkwardness of the situation) let go before, despite it being technically a part of the process.

I agree but any essential terms should be explicitly laid out. It seems very harsh to deny someone citizenship (with all the serious ramifications that may have) at the last minute based on unwritten rules and customs.

There will definitely be an option to appeal... I wonder, if he does appeal, if he will be allowed to shake hands then?

I worked at a hospital in Germany; we had lots of Muslim patients. Only once there was a problem during my time: a man said he wanted a male Muslim nurse. There wasn't one. Second choice, a female Muslim nurse. Third choice, male non-Muslim, last choice, female non-Muslim.
Luckily, there was a female Muslim nurse.

*German government minister

I think the refusing to shake hands showed him up for what he is. Surely he could have shaken hands and then had a good wash/thought yuck/atoned for his sins etc etc afterwards. No one would have been any the wiser and his conscience would have been salved. By refusing publicly that sets out his stall

But for some people these expressions of their faith are absolutely central to their sense of self. I remember a jewish women in nazi germany who was hiding out in the countryside and starving, and who was offered some ham by a farmer. She refused to eat it as she would rather die than give up that part of her identity. What seems trivial to us can be absolutely core to other people's sense of self.

Surely the difference between religion and trans ideology is one is trying to impose their ideology on the rest of society and affect laws etc
I think the point here is that government is imposing its ideology.
And if government adopts trans ideology it could impose that too and refuse citizenship to GC people.

I think this is difficult. The whole appalling treatment and social persecution of women for being GC had really opened my eyes to just how cautious we have to be in imposing sanctions on people for their ideas and beliefs. Because once this has been established as ok, at any point YOUR beliefs could lead to you being sanctioned.

@Shedbuilder

I think that in the particular case of a doctor, who at least during his training would have had to put his hands all over strange women' bodies, the refusal of a ceremonial handshake is particularly marked. I like the German response. I'm not aware of examples of Transgender ideology or identity politics from Germany. Do we have posters in Germany? Are you doing things differently there?

Not living in Germany, but am a native Germand and have family there who I visit several times a year (pre-covid). All job adverts have to be "inclusive" or "gender neutral", so many companies give the job title and then state M/W/D (male, female, diverse). Since 2018 there is a law that allows for a third category "divers" on Birth Certificates for children that are born intersex. People who were born intersex and assigned* a sex at birth can also have their records changed to "D" should they wish to do so. That law is currently intended only for people who were born intersex, not for people who are transgender. But a study by the Federal Ministry of Family Affairs, Senior Citizens, Women and Youth has found that this limitation would neither be justifiable on medical grounds nor on legal grounds. * I wrote assigned (opposed to observed) as this, I believe, would be correct in these cases.

Handshaking is still very much part of German culture and something I do unless I know my opposite really well and replace it with a hug. Children are taught to greet others by shaking hands and my niece insists I shake hers and then her soft toy's hand when I visit them.

As others said, it could be a slippery slope, but I believer the court was right in this instance as the man showed he did not commit to he German constitution based on Democracy and Liberty and this commitment is a requirement to attain German Citizenship.

Yes, I would see it that way if sexes had been reversed or if it had been a different religion. You either accept local customs and commit to their constitution and become a citizen or you don't.
Here in the UK you have to swear an oath of affirmation (non-religious) or an oath of allegiance (religious) when you become a citizen, in both cases you do this to the monarch. So if I had objected to swearing an oath to the monarch, I would not have been able to become a citizen of the UK. Also, I shook the hand of the registrar who did my ceremony, so did everyone else who was naturalised that day.

Japanese people only ( begrudgingly) started to shake hands when having to deal with western business people. It’s really not in their culture to shake hands. Why does every one have to bend to western culture

Because shaking hands is part of the culture of the country he wants to join? If he were applying for Japanese citizenship then likely he will be expected to make the customary bow.

I was a bit ‘oooh harsh’ when i read the title, but actually the withholding handshake thing is, assashhSays, A big deal

Good point. Refusing to shake hands is very much a recognised way of insulting the other person and showing you have no respect for that person. It's a very effective put down.

Good. It’s about time this kind of discrimination was stamped out.

Or we could just get rid of the citizenship process altogether and have a simplified system of self-declaration where you state 'I am now a citizen of ' if it's too traumatic and demeaning for some people to shake hands?

I presume that most GC women are atheists because how a woman could remain attached to and practising a religion that discriminates against women while also holding GC views and considering herself feminist is beyond me.

Not at all. There's a thread here that discusses the fact that GC often clashes with the Christian right. A practicing Christian would see changing sex as against God's will. I am not atheist and I am GC.
But I do not fit into any of the religious boxes, so... it's far more nuanced than that.

Is Germany really a multicultural country? I’d think not
It is, now, or getting there depends on locality. When I first went there in 1975 it definitely was not multicultural. I felt I stuck out like a sore thumb in Frankfurt, my first home. I was back in Frankfurt a few years ago with a friend; walking along the Main riverbank, it was astonishing to see the variety of cultures and people of all skin-colours and clothing, all walking happily and looking very much at home. The big turnaround came in 2016, when Germany hosted the World Championship. It was like an instant opening up to the world quite remarkable. And of course, before that, when the Berlin wall came down.

I agree with the decision and am happy they stuck with it even when he backtracked by saying he wouldn’t shake with men either.

Not at all. There's a thread here that discusses the fact that GC often clashes with the Christian right. A practicing Christian would see changing sex as against God's will. I am not atheist and I am GC.

Ooops -- I didn't mean clashes. I meant overlaps, quite the opposite.

@NonnyMouse1337

Or we could just get rid of the citizenship process altogether and have a simplified system of self-declaration where you state 'I am now a citizen of __' if it's too traumatic and demeaning for some people to shake hands?

Or just go back to the way it was. When I became a citizen in 1983 there was no ceremony. You just got sent a certificate.

But for some people these expressions of their faith are absolutely central to their sense of self

I disagree, in this case the man in question wants to have a "German" self. And that includes shaking womens hands, as per German culture.

And as others have pointed out, he won't be able to avoid touching women due to his profession... double whammy.

how cautious we have to be in imposing sanctions on people for their ideas and beliefs. Because once this has been established as ok, at any point YOUR beliefs could lead to you being sanctioned

Quite agree but this man was being robbed of nothing and nobody is harming him or sanctioning him. He is not entitled to German citizenship. He remains at his status quo.

Or just go back to the way it was. When I became a citizen in 1983 there was no ceremony. You just got sent a certificate.

That does sound far more straightforward.
I had the surreal experience of watching people take pictures of themselves with a portrait of the Queen.

sashagabadon, the reason that Catholic ideology isn't trying to take over is because it was overtaken by Protestantism in the 16th century and the Protestants did such a thorough job that most of us no longer see that our society, government and legislation is still deeply informed by Christianity. Rape within marriage wasn't made a specific crime until 2003 and I would argue that that is because of a terrifyingly patriarchal, backed-up-by religion mindset that a woman becomes a man's chattel on marriage. 'God' and religion is everywhere in the system.

@Cam77

I wouldn’t say they made the wrong decision, but what we are now seeeing could also be the start of a slippery slope. Vegetarianism is pretty uncommon in France, perhaps just 2-3%. Eating is a huge kart if French culture, and meat/fish is a big part of that. If a would be citizen refuses the food at his precermony lunch, should he be refused citizenship? Once you move past legal requirements (respect the law, the constitution, etc) and start moving toward cultural beliefs, norms and behaviors where is the line? Should Tim Faron be stripped of his citizenship for apparently considering homosexuality a sin? I understand the decision, but it’s a slippery slope.

Your examples don't make any sense and are not remotely comparable.

You are also confusing the fact that for the most part anyone born in a country is automatically a citizen. Very few people are stripped of citizenship. This only happens in extreme cases such as going off to fight for ISIS where one has demonstrably shown disloyalty and disregard one's native country- effectively treason and a traitor to your country.

Hello everyone

I am muslim myself so would love to explain to you a bit more on why this is.

In islam, there is no shaking of the hands between men and women who are not related and also strangers. I can shake hands with my husband, father in law, my own father and my brother and uncles. They are also the only males whom can see me without hijab.

In islam, women are definitely most highly respected and valued. When prophet Muhammad passed away one of the last things he said before he died was to be good to your woman. The quran repeatedly says to be kind and loving and dutiful to your wives.
The reason why men and women do not shake hands In islam, is because all women are amazing and beautiful people. What gives a random male or male stranger the right to have skin to skin contact with a woman you are not married with or a close relation with. When I meet my husbands friends, they show a lot of respect to me by greeting me peace and blessings. And bow their head. I dont see it as rude or disrespecting. I will happily shake any woman's hand. Before covid that is.
It is not because everything is sexual and tempting, it's just about being respectful.

A couple years ago, I was getting off the bus and a man in his 50s or 60s offered to help me with my pram, I accepted his help and afterwards I thanked him and he reached his hand forward to shake my hand. I said no thank you, I am a muslim and I dont shake hands with men. But really thank you so much for your help. He said oh right thanks for telling me I didnt know.
In islam, women are called beautiful Pearl's. And we have more rights than men, by far. We have the right to request as much dowry we want at the wedding, whether it be a load of money or even just flowers or a shopping trip and go all out. We have the rights to property to go and work freely. Even in islamic law, women can go with another female witness to back her up in court, whereas men just go by themselves. People assume we are all hidden away in burkas, at the back of the house scrubbing the stove and waiting on our man ,hand and foot. But its not the case. You get horrible people in all cultures and walks of life. Albeit there probably are several horrible husbands who say their muslim, but their faith goes out the window when you treat another human or even animal badly.

I feel very sad when people are biased and judge islam by the media and newspapers rather than read the quran or the hadith for themselves or go to the mosque.
That's why I love meeting people and happily answer their questions.

If this doctor refused to shake hands with a woman, fine. But if he was rude to her rather than say sorry I don't shake hands but I am so glad to meet you then that is bad of him.
In islam, you still have to maintain good manners and be polite. Prophet Muhammad was called names and had rubbish thrown at him. People plotted to kill him. Yet he still showed compassion for the people against him.
If I dont shake hands with a man, doesnt mean I am the most evil person on earth, just means I don't want to and dont need to. I'd still be polite and hope they and their families are well and wish them all the best.

It is interesting to see how despite several Muslim women here saying that they also do not like to shake hands with men, people insist on seeing this as discrimination against women.

The handshake is extra important with doctors! I had a long infertility struggle and met several consultants who were ready to start consulting without even looking up. I routinely stood until they looked up, spotted the proferred hand, stood up and shook it. It makes someone look you in the eye and clock you as a fellow human being. They're going to wash the hand before they touch you with it anyway.

I don't think an individual who hasn't grasped and applied the handshake concept is ready for citizenship yet. Perhaps a handshaking module with a bit of historical and cultural context should be part of the citizenship prep classes.

It's no good acing the theory if you fail the practical.

You are also confusing the fact that for the most part anyone born in a country is automatically a citizen. Very few people are stripped of citizenship. This only happens in extreme cases such as going off to fight for ISIS where one has demonstrably shown disloyalty and disregard one's native country- effectively treason and a traitor to your country

And that no country can strip citizenship if it's going to leave somebody stateless. Removing a citizenship is a very different concept to granting one.

I wouldn't shake a man's hand either

I worked with a bunch of Muslim youths in Germany in the years 2016-2017. They were supposed to be unaccompanied minors it was during the flood of refugees end of 2015 but many had lied about their age. A couple admitted later in to being up to 26 years old. They lived in a home where they cooked for themselves and were introduced to German culture. It was very interesting.

The staff was at least 50% female, most of these young women. I was the oldest woman at 63. We had to be with them in the home day and night, at least two of us. Most were Afghans; a few Syrians. 16 altogether, including four girls.

They were all a bit disoriented at first but soon relaxed. One was aggressive and was thrown out fairly quickly. The rest were at all times respectful and behaved well towards female staff; yes, they touched us, shook hands often quite eagerly and soon there was a friendly atmosphere between us and them. Also between the boys and the girls. There was not one single inappropriate incident the entire time. We were often alone with them; took them on walks in the forest; spent the night with them, sleeping in staff rooms.
I remember when summer came around, swimming pool season! One of the male staff gave the boys a talk about going to the pool where girls would be in bikinis and taught them not to stare. They didn't.
The same man told the boys how to use a condom and gave them dating advice. Once they were independent enough and their German was good enough they went out into the town but had to be back at certain times. Mostly, it worked well. They all attended school during the day where they learned German and could work towards a German leaving certificate. Many did; others got apprenticeships in various jobs later on.
(Most of) the girls adapted very well to German culture. When they went swimming the first time they insisted on NOT going with the boys, and wearing bikinis. One of the girl was more shy and wanted a burkini, which we got for her.

It later turned out that this girl was pregnant when she joined us. We got a very discrete abortion for her. All female doctors attended her. She had been given alcohol by another refugee in of the camps on the way and raped. She was very modest but later had a Muslim boyfriend who mistreated her. It was a sexual relationship and we had to make sure she took the Pill. When she officially turned 18 (she admitted to being actually 26!) she was allowed to have the Pill packets to protect herself, but everyone was sure she'd be pregnant before the year was out.

One of the girls was extremely pretty and a couple of the boys fell in love with her, but she kept them at bay. The girls were all very strong-willed and nothing like the submissive stereotype people seem to think of Muslim women. The pretty one immediately adopted Western dress in every way, tight jeans etc. They all three (one was only 12, so not her) got into a bit of trouble with drinking, getting drunk, etc. They had some rather harrowing stories to tell...

Anyway, there was never a problem with touching. In fact, they all seemed eager to shake hands with everyone. Sometimes even, later on, hugs. They were mostly very nice boys. They all went to the mosque and observed Ramadam and other Islamic events.

One came from a rich family and had been traumatised, having seen his brother's throat get slit. He was a really lovely man, had a real charm and warmth, and was good-looking too. I can understand that one of the young female staff fell for him. They eventually moved in together and last I heard they were engaged.