Man denied German citizenship for refusing to shake woman's hand

[TweeBree]

Curious as to the general opinion on this? Previously, I think I would have sympathised with the immigrant. But now being more aware of how women are discriminated against, I support it 100%.

Excerpt:

A German court ruled on Friday that a Muslim man who refused to shake the hand of a woman should not receive German citizenship.

The 40-year-old Lebanese doctor, who came to Germany in 2002, said he refuses to shake women's hands for religious reasons.

The Administrative Court of Baden-Württemberg (VGH) ruled that someone who rejects a handshake due to a "fundamentalist conception of culture and values" because they see women as "a danger of sexual temptation" was thereby rejecting "integration into German living conditions."

The doctor studied medicine in Germany and now works as a senior physician in a clinic. He applied for citizenship through naturalization in 2012, for which he signed a declaration of loyalty to the German constitution and against extremism. He passed the naturalization test with the best possible score.

Nevertheless, he was not granted citizenship because he refused to shake hands with the responsible official when the naturalization certificate was handed over in 2015. The woman therefore withheld the certificate and rejected the application.

The court said that it made no difference that the man has now declared he will not shake hands with men either.

The man claimed he wanted to affirm the equality of men and women, but the court found that this was merely a tactical move.

Full article: www.dw.com/en/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/a-55311947

@charlestonchaplin

Every nation has the right to stipulate terms and conditions on acquiring citizenship.

I agree but any essential terms should be explicitly laid out. It seems very harsh to deny someone citizenship (with all the serious ramifications that may have) at the last minute based on unwritten rules and customs.

I take your point and I agree. I don't remember all the specifics, and I might be remembering it wrong, but I don't think my citizenship booklet specified I had to be sober to attend. However if I turned up drunk or high, it shouldn't come as a surprise if I would have been turned down at the last minute when the presenting official smelled alcohol on my breath or noticed I was totally out of it. Having lived in British culture, I know it is inappropriate to turn up to an important and respectful event drunk. (this probably holds true for most other cultures as well)

Usually you can always apply again for citizenship. You will lose the initial application money. I'm assuming there's no permanent ban. That would be harsh, I agree, unless he was hiding some serious criminal conviction.

It is a very noticeable clash of cultures because in Western European culture refusing to shake a proffered hand is considered exceptionally rude. (Or at least it was - coronavirus has changed all this, perhaps for good.) I do wonder if they'd have taken the same view if the man in question had been Orthodox Jewish. Or indeed if it had been a woman.

I don't know how I feel about it really. It seems to be saying "People with niche religious views aren't welcome." But quite a few people have niche religious views, including JWs and Mormons. Where does it end?

I think it ends where it ended in France for the teacher on Friday afternoon. When’s you refuse to accept the values of your prospective country. Good on Germany to have the balls to do this. Inevitably this man will be happier elsewhere in a country with the same priorities as him.

FWIW any religion that discriminates on the basis of sex should itself be discriminated against (loss of charitable status, tax treatment etc) . & that includes Catholicism - when I was a child women had to wear headscarves in church, at least that part of the nonsense has stopped.

I was going to say this, then thought I would be opening a can of worms. But it does need saying. Those of us who are GC reject trans ideology on the basis that it's an irrational belief and isn't supported by science or evidence. I presume that most GC women are atheists because how a woman could remain attached to and practising a religion that discriminates against women while also holding GC views and considering herself feminist is beyond me. Some major cognitive dissonance there.

I'd be very concerned that a Doctor who could not respect women equally might be in charge of my medical care. This might lead him to make sub-par decisions regarding my care as a woman.

Good decision.

In fact I've heard of it much more in the UK, than I ever did when living in a country with Islam as the official religion - albeit clearly a progressive country.

Yes I was born and raised in the Middle East and it's kind of ironic to come across these issues more here than there. Maybe if such incidents did happen there, it doesn't garner as much attention but it does feel there's more overt displays here whereas people in Islamic countries don't
tend to makee much fuss in secular settings, unless they are ultra conservative, and most people roll their eyes at them anyway.

@Vermeil

He’s an extremist who has no respect for the cultural norms, or half the citizens, of his adopted country, Bollocks to him. 🤷‍♀️

This.

It's a no from me. If you want to discriminate against women for religious reasons don't expect to be welcomed everywhere with open arms. And if your concern is whether she is bleeding - ugh, seriously, fuck off. That whole bleeding women being unclean thing is responsible for women dying of exposure, absolutely no need to give men a pass because they are weirdly concerned with periods.

... To suddenly have all that removed is traumatic.

To have all what removed?

(Maybe I've got this wrong, happy to be corrected!)

As I understand it he gets to continue to work and live in Germany? I can't see what has been "removed".

Good! See also men that will not sit next to women on flights, should be banned from flying

As someone who has been through the naturalisation process, the handshake is actually part of it. You repeat a declaration (IIRC, that you will observe the values of the constitution and the laws of the country) after the official and then confirm it by a handshake. Before I was a citizen, when I worked in the German public sector, I had to make an affirmation which was also confirmed by a handshake. Refusing the handshake is actually refusing to engage in the final and confirmatory element of the process.

@DilemmaDerby

I’ve had someone do this to me, I was in a work environment, went to shake his hand as he had done to both men with me, and he firmly put his hands behind his back and declined (politely) saying it’s against his beliefs.

It felt dismissive, humiliating and while I was the senior person in the exchange, belittling. Followed by a “mans” conversation between the men. I respect cultural differences but this does matter, if affects your view of women.

I've had similar situations at work a few times. It's really unacceptable and it does feel dismissive and humiliating. I think it's absolutely right that this person should be denied citizenship and I see it as a protection of women's rights. It really shouldn't be allowed for any group within society to have their own laws about women's rights or their own rules about women's status. Women are prevented from the exercise of their rights and freedoms in communities where it is a cultural norm for women to be restricted. We have seen so-called "honour" killings in the UK. We've even had cases of FGM happening in the UK and European countries. We can't let these situations be left to the governance of unelected 'community leaders' and imams who can't even bear to shake a woman's hand.

I do think it's right to make the point that the law says women must be treated as equals with men, and to make a statement that Germany is not willing to sacrifice women's rights in order to satisfy some man's wacky beliefs. We need more of this kind of protection!

To have all what removed?

You are right. I thought he was being deported. My bad.

@Shedbuilder

FWIW any religion that discriminates on the basis of sex should itself be discriminated against (loss of charitable status, tax treatment etc) . & that includes Catholicism - when I was a child women had to wear headscarves in church, at least that part of the nonsense has stopped.

I was going to say this, then thought I would be opening a can of worms. But it does need saying. Those of us who are GC reject trans ideology on the basis that it's an irrational belief and isn't supported by science or evidence. I presume that most GC women are atheists because how a woman could remain attached to and practising a religion that discriminates against women while also holding GC views and considering herself feminist is beyond me. Some major cognitive dissonance there.

Surely the difference between religion and trans ideology is one is trying to impose their ideology on the rest of society and affect laws etc. Catholicism does not seek to make it law or even ask nicely that the whole of the population believes in trans substantiation

Good decision.

As I understand it he gets to continue to work and live in Germany? I can't see what has been "removed".

Unless someone is a citizen, their right to remain in that country is not assured. A change in government or a change in the policy of the party in government can mean a person is required to leave the country. Also, the requirements for citizenship don’t tend to be loosened over time. They tend to get more rigorous, with a greater cost. In any case, I suspect his card is marked, if he is even allowed to reapply.

Residence permits and visas can be a hassle to apply for and have a cost attached, and there are no guarantees where those are concerned. Many visas you need to reapply periodically.

Many GC women don’t call themselves feminists.

@CatteStreet

As someone who has been through the naturalisation process, the handshake is actually part of it. You repeat a declaration (IIRC, that you will observe the values of the constitution and the laws of the country) after the official and then confirm it by a handshake. Before I was a citizen, when I worked in the German public sector, I had to make an affirmation which was also confirmed by a handshake. Refusing the handshake is actually refusing to engage in the final and confirmatory element of the process.

Ah, well in that case, I think I climb off the fence very much on the German side of it. It isn't an outlandish or unreasonable expectation, and if it is clearly an expectation, then he has the choice to go with it or not. He chose not. His prerogative, and maybe he could campaign for an alternative acknowledgement, but as if stands, right decision made.

But then I dont think anyone should be forced to touch anyone they don't consent to either...

He wasnt forced to shake her hand.

Sorry if I've missed this, but what kind of doctor is he? Unless he is a testicular and prostate problem only doctor, it seems not only extreme but dangerous if he regards half his patients as "lesser".

But quite a few people have niche religious views, including JWs and Mormons. Where does it end?

I think, where they decide that it's irreconcilable with German Culture.

Going round knocking on doors, trying to convert you? Inconvenient, but Germans also knock on doors. Refusing the confirmatory handshake? They've decided isn't on.

I think it's hard because as a Brit, we're quite private, as long as it's not actually affecting us individually, we're fine with people getting up to whatever (for better or worse) - other countries are much more invasively involved with each other - I still get a bit uncomfortable about the expectation to put my name on the bell outside my flat for example, and Italians just can't see my problem with it at all.

I know and have worked with a number of Muslim men and no has ever refused to shake my hand - have even had a (platonic) hug.

I think the handshake is more cultural than religious - although it has become intertwined to some people.

Personally I think Germany made the right call - if you cannot accept the cultural norms of a country then you should not be given citizenship. It is a choice to apply so just don't

@Cam77

We are a Multicultural society but some of your cultural practices, though perfectly and entirely legal, are incompatible with Our cultural practices. So you can live here (for as long as your presence here is beneficial to us and you keep renewing your visa) but you can never be One of Us. It’s opening a can of worms that’s for sure.

Is Germany really a multicultural country? I’d think not

I think the refusing to shake hands showed him up for what he is.

Surely he could have shaken hands and then had a good wash/thought yuck/atoned for his sins etc etc afterwards. No one would have been any the wiser and his conscience would have been salved. By refusing publicly that sets out his stall.

Treating women like crap isn't something I imagine God approves of. It always bewilders me that religious men who treat women as lesser think of themselves as great, worthy humans. They degrade themselves and are so arrogant they can't even see it.