Man denied German citizenship for refusing to shake woman's hand

[TweeBree]

Curious as to the general opinion on this? Previously, I think I would have sympathised with the immigrant. But now being more aware of how women are discriminated against, I support it 100%.

Excerpt:

A German court ruled on Friday that a Muslim man who refused to shake the hand of a woman should not receive German citizenship.

The 40-year-old Lebanese doctor, who came to Germany in 2002, said he refuses to shake women's hands for religious reasons.

The Administrative Court of Baden-Württemberg (VGH) ruled that someone who rejects a handshake due to a "fundamentalist conception of culture and values" because they see women as "a danger of sexual temptation" was thereby rejecting "integration into German living conditions."

The doctor studied medicine in Germany and now works as a senior physician in a clinic. He applied for citizenship through naturalization in 2012, for which he signed a declaration of loyalty to the German constitution and against extremism. He passed the naturalization test with the best possible score.

Nevertheless, he was not granted citizenship because he refused to shake hands with the responsible official when the naturalization certificate was handed over in 2015. The woman therefore withheld the certificate and rejected the application.

The court said that it made no difference that the man has now declared he will not shake hands with men either.

The man claimed he wanted to affirm the equality of men and women, but the court found that this was merely a tactical move.

Full article: www.dw.com/en/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/a-55311947

Dual citizenships are allowed if the parents have different citizenships. My children have German and NZ citizenships.

Brefugee - completely agree

• what I was trying to say was that Christianity accepts that the state has authority that trumps Christianity, based on Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's

• there is no such acceptance in Islam. As in this case, adherents claim the precepts of Islam (or their interpretation of Islam) trump whatever the state decrees. To all intents and purposes Islam is a state.

I think it's weird. He doesn't want to shake hands with a woman, so he cannot be German? How many German citizens are racist, misogynist, rapists, peados, think gay people are less than? Surely they should have their citizenship revoked for not aligning with the values of Germany, too.

I shouldn't have to shake anyone's hand if I don't want to.

When he couldnt shake the ladys hand, be could still have been polite and courteous to this lady and said am sorry madam, may I bow to you instead, I do not have the right to touch your hand.

I agree.

In fact the quran is very solid and confirms so many miraculous things that scientists are just discovering today.

Sorry this is nonsense.

The quran goes into detail in regards to so many unique things like conception and how a baby was formed in the womb, this was written over 1400 years ago when technology obviously was not available. It's all incredible and blows your mind.

Do you really think no one had a miscarriage 1400 years ago? That a pregnant woman didn't know she was having a miscarriage? Or how pregnant she was?

Also farmers would know if their animals miscarried / and the stage they were at.

If the Quran contains all this scientific knowledge then why is a year 10 days short of an actual year?

Floral, wishing you all the best. You are always a voice of calm, reason, and goodwill.

I missed FloralBunting's post in among all the others.

Best wishes, Floral.

I believe this mans cultural background and loyalties lie with his original background. Germany requests its citizens are loyal to Germany and respect the German culture. Fair enough imo.

I've looked at the judgement now too and the day after the refusal of the handshake, his wife wrote to the relevant office claiming she had made him promise not to shake women's hands any more because it made her jealous.
I think that's what one calls an attempt to game the system, and the court seemed to feel the same as the judgement sets out that his answers to questions appeared to lack candour and represent an attempt to conceal his lack of alignment with German constitutional principles. It also sets out how the constitution begins with human dignity, progresses to equality before the law and only then makes reference to religious freedom. And that it was not actually legally permissible to naturalise this man under the circumstances, as the doubt as to his attitudes reduced the permissible 'scope for individual decision' to zero.

think that's what one calls an attempt to game the system

Yes.

Seems a perfectly sensible decision to me and they narrowly escaped giving citizenship to someone incapable of being a proper citizen.

Perhaps there could be a line of people you must shake hands with. A mix of men and women who are black, white, gay, straight, Jewish, Christian, Hindu and Muslim.

Anyone unable to see them all as people could just go elsewhere.

@DuckingMad

I shouldn't have to shake anyone's hand if I don't want to.

And no country should have to accept you as a citizen if they don't want to.

"But then I dont think anyone should be forced to touch anyone they don't consent to either..."

This. I hate social kissing, but I live in a country where that is the norm. Should I be denied citizenship if I integrated in all other ways?

I actually did a little cheer out loud. Well played Deutschland.

@Gwenhwyfar

"But then I dont think anyone should be forced to touch anyone they don't consent to either..."

This. I hate social kissing, but I live in a country where that is the norm. Should I be denied citizenship if I integrated in all other ways?

If kissing was seen as a mark of respect and especially if you said "I'll kiss some people but not them gays or jews or whatever" then yes you should be denied citizenship.

Of course if you are already a citizen in a country which has standards you don't measure up to then usually you are allowed to remain one. There's no practical way to remove it.

"If kissing was seen as a mark of respect and especially if you said "I'll kiss some people but not them gays or jews or whatever" then yes you should be denied citizenship."

There's a difference between having different types of touch for people of the same sex and people of the opposite sex than deciding by race or religion, I think.
Why should I be forced to kiss anyone though?

Why should I be forced to kiss anyone though

No one's forcing you to. But if you were requiring citizenship in a country that expected this as a social /cultural norm, and you refused to do so when said country was assessing your application, then you shouldn't be surprised if your application was turned down. As demonstrated by the man who refused to shake the woman's hand in his quest for German citizenship. You go by the rules and customs of that country 🤷

@charlestonchaplin

Every nation has the right to stipulate terms and conditions on acquiring citizenship.

I agree but any essential terms should be explicitly laid out. It seems very harsh to deny someone citizenship (with all the serious ramifications that may have) at the last minute based on unwritten rules and customs.

That's not what happened here. A handshake to seal a deal is a known aspect of German culture. German shake hands with people they work with, are friends with, meet for meals, do business with every time they meet.Even school children shaking hands with their friends at school every morning is just normal. You cannot, like this man, live there and not know that.

He also had to promise to uphold the German constitution and to reject all forms of extremism.

After he refused to shake the female officials hand, she withheld the certificate (without it the ceremony is not completed and citizenship not conferred). And given his explanation, she was right to - the German constitution specifically says that men and women are considered equal. Discrimination on the basis of sex is unlawful.

As he openly treated her worse because of her sex than he would have a male official, he clearly had no intention of keeping his promise.

Germany is also a secular country, so discriminating against someone on the basis of their sex is not magically rendered lawful because your religion demands it.

He then had the opportunity to appeal her decision. That court looked into his attitudes and beliefs and ruled that he did not meet the requirements for citizenship.

He appealed to the next higher court (that of the Bundesland he lives in), which also looked into his wider attitudes towards and beliefs about women and ruled he did not meet the requirements because he does not accept that men and women are equal.

He is now free to appeal to the highest German court, but I expect the outcome to be the same.

In the meantime, he retains his indefinite leave to remain, his job and everything else he had before he applied.

That's the difference between a civil law country and a common law system. There's no law that says you have to shake hands with people. The bloke concerned was a doctor, I'm sure that (a) he contributed a lot to the country (b) they are worse off if he leaves; and (c) he treats all his patients with respect. What if the French insisted that people had to kiss on both cheeks or agree with adultery?

Good for Germany. Applaud the Judge's decision. We can do without that kind of misogyny, especially the sort blamed on religion. This is an educated man and he chose to behave in this manner.

*Perhaps there could be a line of people you must shake hands with. A mix of men and women who are black, white, gay, straight, Jewish, Christian, Hindu and Muslim.

Anyone unable to see them all as people could just go elsewhere.*

I don't know how that could be achieved, but I'd support it . No bigots allowed, especially brazen ones.

@DuckingMad

I think it's weird. He doesn't want to shake hands with a woman, so he cannot be German? How many German citizens are racist, misogynist, rapists, peados, think gay people are less than? Surely they should have their citizenship revoked for not aligning with the values of Germany, too.

You are completely missing the point.

Just re this statement:

You are also confusing the fact that for the most part anyone born in a country is automatically a citizen.

Citizenship by birth is actually relatively rare. No European countries offer this at all. Those that do are:
Antigua and Barbuda
Argentina
Barbados
Belize
Bolivia
Brazil
Canada
Chile
Costa Rica
Cuba
Dominica
Ecuador
El Salvador
Fiji
Grenada
Guatemala
Guyana
Honduras
Jamaica
Lesotho
Mexico
Nicaragua
Pakistan
Panama
Paraguay
Peru
Saint Kits and Nevis
Saint Lucia
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Tanzania
Trinidad and Tobago
Tuvalu
United States
Uruguay
Venezuela

A small handful offer jus soli on the basis that the child's parents are stateless, one European country does, Luxembourg.

Immanuel Kant's categorial imperative: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law."

I think it's quite fitting given that Kant was a German philosopher.