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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My daughter has started a relationship with a boy who thinks he is a girl, and my dad is calling herself a lesbian

211 replies

MothsAreSadButterflies · 15/09/2020 22:24

I can't talk to anyone about this . I feel like if I try to talk to my 17 yr daughter I will get schooled on my bigotry.

The transgirl looks and sounds like an 19yr old boy but with long hair, wearing 'girls' clothes.

I put that in quote marks because what does that mean, what are girl clothes? Who cares what people wear, pink is not for girls and blue for boys...hair should not be gendered. Be a boy who is androgynous or feminine ...I don't care. I fought all my life to get equality and to get away from the idea men and women have different minds, or stereotypical clothes or roles...now it seems someone can 'feel' like a girl, I mean what does that mean!? I'm so confused and upset. Saying you ARE a girl and now my daughter thinks and declares you are too and you are lesbians. If she was a lesbian I'm so fine with that. If he was a boy who didn't believe in gender stereotypes and wore make up and dresses I'm fine with that.. it's just this strangeness. They are not lesbians, it's an insult to real lesbians. He has a penis. She could get pregnant. How could two lesbians do that. I'm struggling to get past the idea that the biology is to be ignored.
Saying you are a woman is enough. But for all of our existence women have not been able to access any privilege. Saying we are men still wouldn't privilege us as transmen are not seen as equal to biological men.
And I feel sorry for this transgirl. I feel they must have deep-rooted issues to declare themselves a woman.

But they are not a woman and to say they are lesbians galls me.
It feels like double speak.

OP posts:
TastelessBracelets · 17/09/2020 10:04

What? I pointed out that Moth's DD needed to understand that regardless of gender identity, biology matters and as a uterus haver she could still get pregnant by a female penis.

Why did that get deleted? It's a scientific fact Hmm

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 17/09/2020 10:10

@TastelessBracelets

What? I pointed out that Moth's DD needed to understand that regardless of gender identity, biology matters and as a uterus haver she could still get pregnant by a female penis.

Why did that get deleted? It's a scientific fact Hmm

I dont know, it’s ridiculous if thats the only reason

But this is the thing that would worry me about the situation, i just couldnt think how to phrase it

And dd could shut moth right down by saying they are using protection but it sounds like she hasn’t, so is it because its a touchy subject between dd and partner?

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 17/09/2020 10:10

You don't need to change your thinking OP, just arrive at a compromise where you respect their relationship and they respect your thinking.
DD and her gf don't need you to validate their identity and relationship, as much as they may want you to.
Just keep communicating and find boundaries which are acceptable to you all. DD may profess to 'hate' you for a while, but she is only 17. As long as you're present and respectful and reliable, you will not lose her. And maybe in months/years to come you will all be able to have an open discussion about this.
But if it were me, I would keep pressing the bruise of the issue of contraception - they must realise/accept they are of the opposite sex, gender identity irrelevant, so there is a risk of pregnancy.

Escapeplanning · 17/09/2020 10:11

It's a bit dramatic to believe you have to adopt a 17 year old child's BF/GF world view to "keep" your child.

She will barely remember this relationship in ten years time.

Viviennemary · 17/09/2020 10:20

Your DD should find out eventually whether or not she is gay. But if they are having sex I can't see how this particular relationship is a gay one. I'd discourage the relationship because you say your DD is innocent and the other person is older.

RuffleCrow · 17/09/2020 10:25

Just humour her like you would any childish phase, OP. But make sure she knows you're humouring her. And never underestimate the power of a raised eyebrow or an "innocent" question.

MothsAreSadButterflies · 17/09/2020 10:25

Sorry I'm feeling exhausted and dramatic and very sad because I am shocked my thinking is so rigid. I didn't expect this stumbling block to occur between us. Except when asked to think something that isn't, is. Green is not green, it's red. Everyone can see it is green but must admire the redness. My mind can't budge. And I have to find a way to think more openly, kindly? I'm I want her to love who she loves and as long as they are kind that is all I want...so I have to trust this person is kind. It would help to get to know them.

Contraception, I will keep it a topic. But got to find a way to even open dialogue right now. Firstly got to remember to be a parent and not feel like a friendship is over. Allowed to be afraid and warn her of realities I guess?

OP posts:
lottiegarbanzo · 17/09/2020 10:27

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

RuffleCrow · 17/09/2020 10:31

And yes have rhe same frank conversation about contraception you would if she was dating any other male. Maybe fill up your home with popular culture by actual lesbians and see if she takes the hint that cultural appropriation is not ok and however nice you're being abour it you're not fooled.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 17/09/2020 10:32

Your thinking isnt rigid

If she could assure you of the contraception issue you’d probably feel a lot better

I completely agree that she should love who she loves But its ok to be worried about ANY relationship

Thats the whole point of being a parent

Thinkingg · 17/09/2020 10:32

I think you should worry less about whether this partner is a man or a woman. What are they like? Kind to your daughter, making her happy and fulfilled? Or is it a bad relationship? It's strange to me that you haven't mentioned anything about this.

"I feel like my gut feelings about DD falling for a transwoman are based around fear of the unknown, that everything is going to be harder dating 'her' putting them at risk on trains or in public, of being attacked or singled out .. and at the heart of it I can't accept 'she' is a woman, not really. Not lesbians."

I think it's okay that you and your daughter define "woman" differently, you have different philosophical beliefs about whether sex or gender-presentation is more important to defining that category. I can honestly see both points of view. Unfortunately your daughter thinks your definition is offensive and harmful, so it's up to you to decide whether to keep the peace or argue on that one.

The other fears though - you say you are fine with the idea that a man can wear "feminine" clothing - anyone doing this would face similar risks being out in public. It seems unfair to frown on a relationship because of what the partner wears.

SerenityNowwwww · 17/09/2020 10:33

This is not what the partner wears - it’s what they think and say.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 17/09/2020 10:35

@SerenityNowwwww

This is not what the partner wears - it’s what they think and say.
Well exactly
lottiegarbanzo · 17/09/2020 10:52

The bottom line, which you're butting your head against, is that someone being gay requires nothing of anybody else. The gay person is free to choose their partner, to do consenting adult stuff together and get on with their lives.

A gay person can flourish in their life and sexuality without requiring anybody else to say anything they believe to be untrue, to do anything, or to give up anything. There is literally no demand upon anyone else.

You are having demands made upon you, to say things you don't believe and to show obeisance to a belief system you do not subscribe to.

Religious converts can be annoying and some are actively evangelical. They don't require non-converts to speak in the terms prescribed by their belief though - or think that this could be possible. They do not think that other people's failure to become part of their religion challenges or invalidates their own belief. They might look down upon, or feel sorry for the heathens and infidel but they have the self-assurance, the strength of belief, to get on with their lives despite the non-believers' existence.

lottiegarbanzo · 17/09/2020 10:59

OMG, my first ever deletion - and I've been on MN, often stroppy, irritable, direct and argumentative, for almost a decade.

For a very measured post too, in which I wrote only in the most general terms - and in a way that was gently supportive of the OP, (yet at the same time of her daughter), reassuring OP that all would be well, in time - which is, after all, what this site is for.

The thought police are out in force today!

Thelnebriati · 17/09/2020 11:11

Your thinking isn't rigid, its consistent and factual. Children need consistency from parents, not ambivalence. You haven't rejected your daughter or her friend.
You are her parent, not her best friend.

MothsAreSadButterflies · 17/09/2020 11:15

I don't know how kind or lovely they are because DD has kept it under the radar.

But really that is my only wish. That they are kind.

Just have to focus on that thought only.

OP posts:
Quietlyloud · 17/09/2020 11:38

I think making your views clear to her and then leaving it at that will be better for now. Last thing you want to do is push her away if she ever does get concerns about it all, you want her to be able to talk to you. I’d go as far as saying you don’t want to discuss it if she brings it up at all. I know that sounds hypocritical to wanting her to talk to you about things but if it will only lead to an argument an agreement to just know each others views, be supportive but make it clear you don’t want her to try and change your mind by discussing how this person is meant to be a lesbian, if refuse to refer to their relationship as one and if she has an issue with that, it’s okay, but you have your opinion and won’t be discussing changing it. I’m not there at the moment with my two as they are both under ten but that’s how I’d approach it I think.

SafeInBed · 17/09/2020 11:43

There's basically no way to be shocking cool and edgy for them because their parents stole tattoos, tongue piercings, goth, grunge, bulemia/anorexia and music festivals.

Can't believe you put eating disorders, actual mental health issues that are life-threatening, in the same category as rebellious "edgy" behaviours.

TheABC · 17/09/2020 12:08

It's "be nice and play along" on a family level.

Whilst you can bite your tongue be accepting OP, you should not be ashamed to point out the biological reality that her partner has a functional penis and sex can result in babies. Contraception is not hate-speak. Heck, even if it were a same-sex attraction, you would still be talking about STD safety.

lottiegarbanzo · 17/09/2020 13:17

Just as a general recommendation, not particularly relevant to this case as it happens - since this dd's BF seems rather evasive, quite the opposite of seeking to charm the parents into offering their blessing to the relationship - I would recommend the film 'An Education', starring Carey Mulligan. It's a nice bit of social history, if nothing else.

I was prompted to think about it the other day in the context of a case of what appears to be some level of coersive control, in my wider field of acquaintances, in which the husband does in many ways, have a pair of very intelligent, educated, capable parents, eating out of his hand and deferring to him. It is interesting, if disturbing, to watch, in real life.

That film popped into my head and I realised that it is not only the less educated, unworldy, provincial parent that can place themselves in a position of actively nurturing a coersive boyfriend or husband.

My general point, which might have some relevance here, is that there is a very fine and nuanced line between acceptance and encouragement, between supporting the one you love in making their own choices and endorsing, so cementing, a particular path. Also in choosing not to comment upon disquieting observations, so as not to rock a fragile boat, thus failing to cast light upon events which might later have coalesced to illuminate a pattern and a problem.

I don't envy you OP. I agree that what really matters is whether this individual is kind. I agree with pp that any attempt to prevent your dd from talking openly to you would be deeply concerning. I also think it is very, very important not to allow yourself to be 'persuaded' into saying things you don't believe (and I've just 'got' a reference I saw the other day, on another thread, to dogs and horses).

lottiegarbanzo · 17/09/2020 13:22

Or more briefly, what's so hard about 'agree to disagree'? It's a concept we all have to learn to embrace, if we wish to function in a plural society, as we mature.

ladybee28 · 17/09/2020 14:15

[quote MothsAreSadButterflies]@NonMumInterloper wise thoughts thank you..

thank you everyone kind enough to advise me. I have ruined it though. The chance to accept DDS partner...I had a chance to be accepting and open and my fears and refusal to be open-minded have caused a schism. I think she hates me. I feel like my gut feelings about DD falling for a transwoman are based around fear of the unknown, that everything is going to be harder dating 'her' putting them at risk on trains or in public, of being attacked or singled out .. and at the heart of it I can't accept 'she' is a woman, not really. Not lesbians.

I have a lot of work to do to learn a new acceptance and change my thinking...at least if I want to keep my DD.[/quote]
Oh OP.

"My fears and refusal to be open-minded have caused a schism" – is so hard to read.

Your feelings have not 'caused' anything – you have every right to feel the way you feel and the fact that your DD has had a big reaction doesn't make them wrong, nor does it even mean they're the cause of her reaction. She's managing a lot of internal chaos at the moment with all this, too.

You feel a way she wishes you didn't feel. That's OK.

You're both allowed to have the feelings you have and they're all equally valid.

She also wants to 'keep' her mother, much as it might not seem that way.

Leave the door open. You'll find a way through.

Escapeplanning · 17/09/2020 14:15

Maybe it's different with DSs but I spent very little time with my two partners at that age. It was "hi" if we were in a room at the same time and that was it.

She will soon move on to the next one.

Escapeplanning · 17/09/2020 14:17

My two kids partners I mean.

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