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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My daughter has started a relationship with a boy who thinks he is a girl, and my dad is calling herself a lesbian

211 replies

MothsAreSadButterflies · 15/09/2020 22:24

I can't talk to anyone about this . I feel like if I try to talk to my 17 yr daughter I will get schooled on my bigotry.

The transgirl looks and sounds like an 19yr old boy but with long hair, wearing 'girls' clothes.

I put that in quote marks because what does that mean, what are girl clothes? Who cares what people wear, pink is not for girls and blue for boys...hair should not be gendered. Be a boy who is androgynous or feminine ...I don't care. I fought all my life to get equality and to get away from the idea men and women have different minds, or stereotypical clothes or roles...now it seems someone can 'feel' like a girl, I mean what does that mean!? I'm so confused and upset. Saying you ARE a girl and now my daughter thinks and declares you are too and you are lesbians. If she was a lesbian I'm so fine with that. If he was a boy who didn't believe in gender stereotypes and wore make up and dresses I'm fine with that.. it's just this strangeness. They are not lesbians, it's an insult to real lesbians. He has a penis. She could get pregnant. How could two lesbians do that. I'm struggling to get past the idea that the biology is to be ignored.
Saying you are a woman is enough. But for all of our existence women have not been able to access any privilege. Saying we are men still wouldn't privilege us as transmen are not seen as equal to biological men.
And I feel sorry for this transgirl. I feel they must have deep-rooted issues to declare themselves a woman.

But they are not a woman and to say they are lesbians galls me.
It feels like double speak.

OP posts:
ItalianHat · 16/09/2020 17:27

I can't imagine gay men classifying her as such

I've had some very frank conversations with gay male friends about this. One said to me that he'd be fascinated to watch how the presence of a transman in a gay bath house (or the like) might play out, but that he, himself is interested in cock, and so not interested in transmen.

deepwatersolo · 16/09/2020 18:36

Well, I guess in your shoes I couldn't help musing in front of DD on how, obviously and luckily, DD is aware that her girlfriend can make her pregnant, and wondering, how future generations will get clued in, considering the terms 'girl' and 'boy' are now taken and mean something different than they meant when DD grew up. Will the new category be 'people with penises' and 'people with vaginas'? Will new words emerge to make this categorization? What interesting times we live in....

(Yes, this type of talk - on different issues - drives my DS crazy. But that is only fair, considering how much some of his opinions, the ones I dissect this way, annoy the hell out of me).

FannyCann · 16/09/2020 18:50

One said to me that he'd be fascinated to watch how the presence of a transman in a gay bath house (or the like) might play out,

I've seen some very frank discussions regarding this, indeed there was a case reported in the news and the people without penises were very upset to find their presence unwelcome. I won't link however, it'll only get deleted.

ItalianHat · 16/09/2020 19:45

Yes, I read about that. Funny how the place that catered to people with penises wasn't cancelled, put out of business, or harassed, threatened and protested against - no banging on the windows or letting off fireworks in the vicinity. Funny that ...

CloudyVanilla · 16/09/2020 19:52

She's an adult, she knows her partner is trans and therefore still has a risk of pregnancy. I'm sure she will be fine. Her validating the identity of her partner who identifies as trans is her prerogative, I'm not really sure why it's a problem.

newsyoucanuse · 16/09/2020 19:55

Make
Sure she’s on contraception, if she wants to call herself a lesbian let her crack on with it. I’m a lesbian, I’m not offended or bothered by that. Maybe this girlfriend will decide to be a boy, may she will stay a trans girl permanently.
Who knows. The chances of your DD staying in their relationship at her age is low.
Maybe youR DD is actually questioning her sexuality and this is a step towards that.

NonMumInterloper · 16/09/2020 23:10

I think perhaps the only thing you can try to do is to minimise the damage that she is doing to young lesbians in her circle - and there will be young lesbians around, although they will be less likely to be calling themselves lesbians. (If you are dating or have dated a male or are open to dating a male it is safe - even trendy - to call yourself a lesbian but if you are actually a female homosexual ie suspected 'transphobe/terf lesbian' or 'vagina fetishist' it is safer to call yourself queer to try to fly under the radar a bit).

Ask her if she thinks some girls are only attracted to other biological females and whether she thinks that it is natural and acceptable or is it a learned prejudice that needs to be overcome. I think parents have a tendency to think that woke self-identified queers are just overly liberal, nice, inclusive if naive young people but that is often not the case.

When I was growing up, there was a lot of bullying, saying we were disgusting perverts, that we just needed to try d**k to learn to like it but we knew who that was coming from. These days it comes from ostensibly progressive heterosexual and bisexual 'queers' - for whom the label 'lesbian' is becoming increasingly popular, but this shouldn't be confused with any liking for or even tolerance for female homosexuals.

Even if your daughter isn't actively pressuring lesbians to have sex with men, she will be used as an example of a 'good' lesbian and proof that lesbians can be attracted to males if they overcome their prejudices.

A older friend of mine last year went to an LGBT group for the first time in many years and, when she described herself as a lesbian, the other attendees - one transwoman and a group of in reality heterosexual or bisexual women (whatever they identified as) -really interrogated her on it, questioning why she hadn't had sex with men, calling her bigoted (not just for not sleeping with transwomen but also for not being open to sex with male-identified men) - just a constant stream of attack for much of the session, which the facilitator just allowed to continue. She said she had never experienced anything like this since the 80s (although obviously back then it wasn't from within gay circles) and just kept saying to me 'but this is what we fought against all these years ago' because it felt like we fought and won this battle back then.

I've had more exposure to this kind of stuff and, although I also remember the old days and what was known for all that time (same-sex attraction is natural and innate, a lesbian is a woman who is only attracted to other women etc), when you are just constantly being bombarded with messages from multiple people that sexuality is fluid, lesbians can be attracted to males (not just transwomen - they say lesbians can be attracted to male-identified men) etc it just gets overwhelming and you feel like you are starting to lose your grip on reality and are back where you were as a young isolated lesbian with nowhere to turn - only this time it's worse as it's not just a case of escaping to the big city and finding the gay community because this is what you are faced with.

I can't even imagine what it must be like to be a young lesbian growing up now who doesn't even have that basis in reality, who will be seeking community and advice from 'lesbians' who could be heterosexual or bisexual and view not being attracted to men as a flaw to be overcome. Even if she is able to start to identify the problem, she can't name it as lesbophobia because the other (heterosexual/bisexual) lesbians aren't experiencing it - or are the ones telling her she is wrong.

I know a lot of heterosexual and bi women will view this as a quirky, maybe embarrassing, phase they went through as a teen - as though it's a crap haircut or dodgy taste in music - and will walk away from it and settle down with a husband and kids but I know I still struggle with some of things I was subjected to as a young lesbian by my peers and, whatever perception people end up with of the LGB community once the queers have finished with it, we have to continue to live with it.

BunnyLovesBananas · 16/09/2020 23:23

Amusing typo in the title OP

I agree with what you say. I don't "get" being able to decide what gender you are and I hate that we are not allowed to say that in real life.

FloralBunting · 16/09/2020 23:33

Fucking hell, I am so done with other people who claim to be lesbians disputing that to be a lesbian means to be same sex oriented. You have no clue how much you look like the open homophobes I have known in my life, from the religious ones who thought exorcism and prayer would fix me, or maybe even 'spiritual' intercourse, to the lads in the train station who were so angry I kissed my girlfriend goodbye they threw a few punches since the queer lezzer wanted to be a bloke so much.

Is it any wonder I went deep into ths closet for so long, and still find it so hard to come out when the 'community' is full of pandering shite that tells teen girls in heterosexual relationships that lesbian can mean person with cock? I'm nervous about coming out around religious people, and nowadays I'm nervous around coming out around avowed LGBT+ people, because it just all looks so damned similar.

Anyway, OP, you've had good advice about emphasising safer sex and not rising to the nonsense. Teens cosplay with other people's realities, and then they move on. Just keep being mum, keep communicating.

bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg · 17/09/2020 00:05

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Quaagars · 17/09/2020 00:18

Why does it matter what she defines herself as in the couple?
Be supportive and be there for your daughter. That will speak volumes and go a long way
This - if your daughter's happy in her relationship, is it really your business?
You'll just end up pushing her away - her relationships, her sexuality, her preferences are really nothing to do with you.

HermioneMakepeace · 17/09/2020 00:43

My dd 12 has decided she's bicurious , crack on love, was not the response she was after I think.

I'm sorry, but this made me laugh so much Grin.

Antibles · 17/09/2020 01:14

Thoroughly enjoyed "my dad is calling herself a lesbian". Top marks for the application of appropriate pronouns under pressure, I thought.

More seriously, I would be very uncomfortable by the gaslighting aspect of a young male claiming to be a girl. Also when at that age this could be a case of the great unmentionable as opposed to gender dysphoria and wouldn't it be pretty miserable to end up on the transwidows thread so young if things escalate?

It's not Lily Madigan is it?

Quaagars · 17/09/2020 01:25

More seriously, I would be very uncomfortable by the gaslighting aspect of a young male claiming to be a girl

Sounds like OP's dd knows is trans though, and is happy?

JKRowlingIsMyQueen · 17/09/2020 01:49

@NonMumInterloper and @FloralBunting this is heartbreaking, I'm so sorry Flowers

Gwynfluff · 17/09/2020 07:10

recommend a slim copper IUD

Really for a 17 year old? Too many stories of poor fittings of these to recommend them to my kids. It falls into the category of things women are told are ‘slightly uncomfortable’ but actually bloody hurt.

I’d take my chances with the latex condoms - I don’t think latex allergies are overly prevalent.

MothsAreSadButterflies · 17/09/2020 07:57

Good morning. Sorry to neglect the thread. Real life, work was a long shift.

The advice in here has been very wise and useful. But all dependant on me being calm and rational.

I tried a general conversation around some of the ideas here, around caution about contraception etc, and was met with heartbreaking crying (and she never shows me emotions) from DD that I had deadnamed her transwoman partner by talking about them as male. She sounded like she was schooling me. It was hard to not get more upset and passionate from both sides. Husband de-escalated it and I tried to remember all calm advice. I think best thing for my relationship with DD is to just let her get on with it and feign disinterest.

I wish I was on Jeremy Kyle with my dad, it would be at least entertaining in the dramatic nature of it all. Rather than a terrible rift.

OP posts:
SerenityNowwwww · 17/09/2020 08:04

‘Dead-named’ by (I assume) not saying Dave/Don/Fred but by counselling her - as a mum should - to use protection if she is having sex with her partner. Are you supposed to lalalalalala, they aren’t having sex with that... organ? And if they do she can’t get pregnant, ever? How old is the partner?

Beamur · 17/09/2020 08:11

Oh dear. That sounds upsetting.
Unfortunately her partner is probably schooling her in 'rightthink' too.
If she thinks that acknowledging contraception is needed is dead naming I would be worried about her getting pregnant!
Whilst I agree with all the posters saying it's a bit of a cheek to call yourself a lesbian in this situation, having that conversation will be toxic to your relationship with your DD, so I wouldn't say it right now. I think your approach of mild indifference will probably communicate your less than enthusiastic embracing of this ideology well enough. But you need to keep a friendly channel open to your DD for when this relationship inevitably bites the dust. Which it will, simply down to their ages.

IheartJKR · 17/09/2020 08:14

@NonMumInterloper great post.

testing987654321 · 17/09/2020 08:17

was met with heartbreaking crying (and she never shows me emotions) from DD that I had deadnamed her transwoman partner by talking about them as male.

This just highlights how fragile the belief in them as a woman actually is, a total failure to cope with reality.

I really feel for you and your daughter. I don't have any answers apart from just be there for her, criticising boyfriends at that age just makes them seem more appealing.

Malahaha · 17/09/2020 08:22

If your dad decides to be a lesbian, so is your mother btw.

Absolutely not; not if she is not attracted to female bodies.

If, in the hypothetical but impossible (because he is dead!) case that my husband declared himself a lesbian, I would not be sleeping with him. Absolutely not.
And I would not be a lesbian.

MothsAreSadButterflies · 17/09/2020 09:22

@NonMumInterloper wise thoughts thank you..

thank you everyone kind enough to advise me. I have ruined it though. The chance to accept DDS partner...I had a chance to be accepting and open and my fears and refusal to be open-minded have caused a schism. I think she hates me. I feel like my gut feelings about DD falling for a transwoman are based around fear of the unknown, that everything is going to be harder dating 'her' putting them at risk on trains or in public, of being attacked or singled out .. and at the heart of it I can't accept 'she' is a woman, not really. Not lesbians.

I have a lot of work to do to learn a new acceptance and change my thinking...at least if I want to keep my DD.

OP posts:
Beamur · 17/09/2020 09:33

I think your fears are quite realistic to be honest, I'm sure they will be fine amongst their peers, but the wider public may be a different matter. Sadly there is a lot of intolerance out there. Both for women and transpeople.
You probably do need to think things through and come to some kind of peace in yourself about this. I'm not sure you need to compromise your own thoughts, but you do need to find a neutral ground on which to meet your DD and potentially her partner too.

TastelessBracelets · 17/09/2020 09:33

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