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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!

215 replies

WeeBisom · 05/09/2020 19:12

There's a Facebook post doing the rounds that promises to explain transgender identity. Unfortunately the explanation is very poor and just leaves me with more questions. Seriously, this is the best they can do? I'm going to break this thing down.

Our helpful guide is a "cis" man. And his basic premise is he FEELS like a man but he doesn't know why! He doesn't like any stereotypical guy stuff! (I find it really funny that he says he likes music, cooking and the arts, all things which are incredibly male dominated.) Ok, but I don't think activities ought to be gendered anyway. You do you. You're still a bloke if you like knitting.

But then he tells us it's not physical either. He has this man feeling, but it's not because he has a penis. He then tells us that if you put his brain in a robot body his 'essence" would still "feel male'. He then informs us he has an acute lack of imaginative power and "literally" cannot imagine what being any other gender would feel like. And this is supposed to persuade me that being trans is a real thing.

The problem with running thought experiments, like the brain transplant scenario, is that you take the risk of others just simply not sharing your intuition. And this is what has happened here. If you put my brain in a robot body, god knows how I would feel. God even knows if it would still be me in any meaningful sense. I'm very much like David Hume in that I don't get the impression I have a 'me' "essence." I don't think my personality or 'self' is intrinsically gendered. And more to the point...the biggest conflict is this guy super strongly 'feel's male (so much he can't even imagine what it would be like to be female!) and I don't share this feeling at all. I don't 'feel' female at all. I find it very easy to imagine being in a male body. There is just an irreconcilable clash, here. He has a lack of imagination and a very strong feeling he labels 'male'. I have a good imagination and zero gender feelings. So, er , how is he supposed to persuade me?

He then tells me that he's a man but he has no clue WHY he's a man.He surmises he is a man because "of something ephemeral." Well, now we are just getting into theology. I have deeply religious friends who are baffled at my atheism. It is so confusing to their worldview that some of them even think I do think God exists but I choose to deny his existence. And when I ask them why they believe in God they just know. They can't point to anything rational or tangible, or even coherently explain it - they feel it. But unless you share these deep special feelings there can be no persuasion. There's nothing rational here - no evidence, no argumentation, no logic. Just an appeal to inexplicable feelings.

Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!
Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!
OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 05/09/2020 19:25

Increasingly if I read stuff like this, I find myself channelling Geordie from Grantchester: "yeah, bollocks"

DidoLamenting · 05/09/2020 19:41

I find it really funny that he says he likes music, cooking and the arts, all things which are incredibly male dominated

Really? I don't think so.

EyesOpening · 05/09/2020 19:49

@DidoLamenting

I find it really funny that he says he likes music, cooking and the arts, all things which are incredibly male dominated

Really? I don't think so.

I think you've got that wrong - he said he doesn't like sports, cars and guns (typically male) instead he likes music, cooking and the arts, as though they are NOT typically male
WeeBisom · 05/09/2020 19:49

@DidoLamenting: Well, it's part of the problem with 'gendering' activities in the first place, but in one sense they are super macho: 95% of classical conductors in the UK are male, 84% of chefs are male, and 70% of artists hosted in galleries are male. If a man tells me he enjoys 'music', 'cooking' and 'arts' I don't see anything particularly feminine about that at all, and yet he's trying to frame it like a man liking these things is somehow not manly.

OP posts:
Keaveny · 05/09/2020 19:58

I saw that post and thought it was bollocks. But when my ‘friend’ posted it, I noticed no-one challenges it. It is so clearly full of logical holes.

ThunderSkies · 05/09/2020 20:01

This drives me mad. First and foremost, I feel like me. Because I’m female, I suppose feeling like me must mean feeling like a female. Had I been unhappy in some way, I could argue that I felt male. But what is male? Can you feel a chromosome? 'Feelings' are so wish-washy.

I want to live in a world where a man can live, love and wear (etc) what they like (look at Brad Mondo, for example. Look at all the rockstars wearing eyeliner). I also want to live in a world where a woman can live, love and wear what they like.

Sadly, I see a world where stereotypes are just getting worse.

notyourhandmaid · 05/09/2020 20:02

People can absolutely 'feel the same' as he does, but it doesn't mean it's a good basis for anything legal.

Grellbunt · 05/09/2020 20:05

And yet men are allegedly the “rational, logical “ ones - if stereotypes are to be believed...

Catiopea · 05/09/2020 20:21

I have a feeling (& have since a child) of a ‘thumb/toe’ growing from the middle of my foot/feet - much like how orangutanes have. As i grew up I questioned if I had had a growth there that had been removed as a baby and it was a ‘phantom limb’ feeling (uncle had 6 toes so not completely weird idea)

No, was/is the short answer, I’ve never had an unusual ‘gripping toe’, the feeling was just that, a feeling, no explanation.

I still ‘feel’ it but I don’t imagine I’m an orangutan and I know that I’ve never had that type of physical growth there.

I am now re-thinking everything - maybe I am a human/orangutan hybrid because I feel this extra gripping toe.

Should I contact a research centre because I am obviously special???

Delphinium20 · 05/09/2020 23:07

I think this is the COVID talking...

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 00:09

Our helpful guide is a "cis" man. And his basic premise is he FEELS like a man but he doesn't know why! He doesn't like any stereotypical guy stuff!

Just read that, I get where he's coming from (just not as a c*s man, but as a woman)
It isn't anything to do with what you like to do hobby wise, what colour you like best, what you like to wear)
I just AM. Away from my body (although I'm aware obviously that's part of it too before anyone says)

Ok, but I don't think activities ought to be gendered anyway. You do you. You're still a bloke if you like knitting
Isn't that what the screenshot you linked to is saying, though? That he knows he's a bloke even if he liked knitting, That there's more to it than that for him.
I know where he's coming from.

BlackWaveComing · 06/09/2020 00:34

You aren't anything, away from your body. There's no you independent of the body, unless you want to get into theology, and hey, let's not make law on that basis?

BlackWaveComing · 06/09/2020 00:37

The robot thought experiment is just dumb. How in earth can I know there is an essential me that would survive, complete with sense of sex, if my brain was taken from my body and hooked up to a robot?

Its profoundly detached from the reality that we are our bodies.

BilboBercow · 06/09/2020 00:41

I just don't get it. I know I'm a woman because I AM A WOMAN. Everything I've known since childhood, my body, my experiences, the way others react to me. I'm a woman because of my biology.
I absolutely reject that there's an innate sense of womanhood that doesn't result from how we're socialised.

Tootletum · 06/09/2020 00:49

@Catiopea Orang utans are very endangered. If you feel like one of them you should definitely campaign for funding to protect your habitat 😁

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 00:50

I just don't get it. I know I'm a woman because I AM A WOMAN

So do I, if you're meaning because of your biology.
I'm a woman because my body tells me I am.
That's not all there is though, not for me anyway - nothing to do with being socialised as one.
There is an innate sense, for me and obviously others, and maybe the fact that I have one is why I can think it stands to reason why trans people might have that too?

OldCrone · 06/09/2020 01:00

I'm a woman because my body tells me I am.

So you know that you're a woman because you have a woman's body. If you thought you were a man, or a dog, or a horse, then wouldn't that mean that you had some sort of neurological or psychological disorder? Because you would be thinking that you were something that you're not.

WeeBisom · 06/09/2020 01:06

@Quaagars, I think there may be a difference in thinking here. He thinks part of his essence, his core self , is being “male” or being a “man”. I don’t think my self has a gender. I think I would the same person no matter what body I found myself in- I would feel the same. This man thinks that women are such alien creatures he can’t , quote , literally imagine what it would be like to be a woman. This viewpoint is so strange to me.

OP posts:
Quaagars · 06/09/2020 01:10

If you thought you were a man, or a dog, or a horse, then wouldn't that mean that you had some sort of neurological or psychological disorder

See, you're putting man in there with things like dog and horse.
It's not the same.
If I have an innate sense of being female, away from socialised as one, it stands to reason that trans people are likely to have the same.
If my innate sense was that of being a man instead of a woman, I can kind of understand how being trans would come about.

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 01:13

This man thinks that women are such alien creatures he can’t , quote , literally imagine what it would be like to be a woman

I'm the same though, but the other way round - literally can't imagine what it would be like to be a man, or in a man's body.
Repulsive thought to me (love men, but not to be one myself!) just no.
Can see why the sense of disconnect would be unbearable (for want of a better word)

RJnomore1 · 06/09/2020 01:27

Well yes I get what he’s saying. He’s comfortable in his own body.

Many people aren’t, like those with eating disorders, or body dismorphia, or survivors of childhood sexual abuse 🤷🏻‍♀️

OldCrone · 06/09/2020 01:34

See, you're putting man in there with things like dog and horse. It's not the same.

Why not? If you can feel like the opposite sex, why can't you feel like a different species?

Kaiserin · 06/09/2020 01:42

I have a theory... That some people feel a strong sense of kinship towards certain groups of people, and this forms a strong part of their sense of identity.

For instance, some male feel a stronger sense of kinship towards males, than towards females. And some females feel a stronger sense of kinship towards females, than towards males.

But people can also feel kinship for many other reasons, towards many different groups. And toward humanity as a whole (and beyond). This sense of kinship (and resulting "identity") doesn’t have to be gendered (it's just one variable among many).

And then... Some males feel a stronger sense of kinship towards females, and see males as "other". And some females feel a stronger sense of kinship towards males, and see females are "other".
This can manifest through role models they identify with, and/or how they picture their "ideal" self.
And it can also manifest through a strong repulsion towards certain traits attributed to the "other" group (and an unrealistic, idealised view of the group they identify as)

That's my theory... I've come to believe these feelings can be real (they can also be faked...). But I'm not convinced they should be systematically validated, without questioning their origin, which could be rooted in bigotry (e.g. internalised misogyny, closeted homophobia, etc.) or trauma.
Generally speaking, self-loathing and dissociation don't strike me as healthy states of mind :/

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 01:47

why can't you feel like a different species?

.....
Dogs aren't human, different species, different "set up"?

FairPoint · 06/09/2020 01:54

Why does he believe himself to be unusual?