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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!

215 replies

WeeBisom · 05/09/2020 19:12

There's a Facebook post doing the rounds that promises to explain transgender identity. Unfortunately the explanation is very poor and just leaves me with more questions. Seriously, this is the best they can do? I'm going to break this thing down.

Our helpful guide is a "cis" man. And his basic premise is he FEELS like a man but he doesn't know why! He doesn't like any stereotypical guy stuff! (I find it really funny that he says he likes music, cooking and the arts, all things which are incredibly male dominated.) Ok, but I don't think activities ought to be gendered anyway. You do you. You're still a bloke if you like knitting.

But then he tells us it's not physical either. He has this man feeling, but it's not because he has a penis. He then tells us that if you put his brain in a robot body his 'essence" would still "feel male'. He then informs us he has an acute lack of imaginative power and "literally" cannot imagine what being any other gender would feel like. And this is supposed to persuade me that being trans is a real thing.

The problem with running thought experiments, like the brain transplant scenario, is that you take the risk of others just simply not sharing your intuition. And this is what has happened here. If you put my brain in a robot body, god knows how I would feel. God even knows if it would still be me in any meaningful sense. I'm very much like David Hume in that I don't get the impression I have a 'me' "essence." I don't think my personality or 'self' is intrinsically gendered. And more to the point...the biggest conflict is this guy super strongly 'feel's male (so much he can't even imagine what it would be like to be female!) and I don't share this feeling at all. I don't 'feel' female at all. I find it very easy to imagine being in a male body. There is just an irreconcilable clash, here. He has a lack of imagination and a very strong feeling he labels 'male'. I have a good imagination and zero gender feelings. So, er , how is he supposed to persuade me?

He then tells me that he's a man but he has no clue WHY he's a man.He surmises he is a man because "of something ephemeral." Well, now we are just getting into theology. I have deeply religious friends who are baffled at my atheism. It is so confusing to their worldview that some of them even think I do think God exists but I choose to deny his existence. And when I ask them why they believe in God they just know. They can't point to anything rational or tangible, or even coherently explain it - they feel it. But unless you share these deep special feelings there can be no persuasion. There's nothing rational here - no evidence, no argumentation, no logic. Just an appeal to inexplicable feelings.

Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!
Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!
OP posts:
Quaagars · 06/09/2020 20:30

But we dont feel male or female, we just are due to the body we have and how we are socialised into the male/female role

You might not, but you don't speak for everyone.

OldCrone · 06/09/2020 20:32

Do some posters have a problem with other people being different from them? Or with the idea that older trans men exist? That's what's coming across.

You seem to have a somewhat different view to me about what is being discussed here. I don't think people have a problem with others being different from them. We're all different, obviously, with our own personalities and opinions.

We all know older transmen exist, but if they exist in the numbers indicated by the GIDS figures, then there are more than twice as many of them as there are older transwomen, which seems unlikely unless nearly all of them (apart from Stephen Whittle) keep a very low profile so that there are virtually none of them in the public eye.

And if there are lots of reasons why they don't transition, this means that transition is a choice which teenage girls should not be making. They should wait until they are mature enough to do so, and may also decide not to transition.

TorkTorkBam · 06/09/2020 20:50

I read the cis-man's article and thought, "yeah, maybe, so what?"

None of what he said then means current sex segregation should be abandoned. None of it means hormones and surgery should be prescribed. Not that he suggested any of those things should happen.

He can see how some people feel like their body doesn't match what their mind and/or society tells they are. I am sure that is true not just for the gender non-comforming but also the old, disabled, overweight, underweight, short, tall, black, white etc.

No shit Sherlock. So what?

RuffleCrow · 06/09/2020 20:55

Sounds like more bullshit i can't be arsed to read. That's nice if he feels like he's 'cis' but he needs to remember he's just one in 4 billion. It doesn't make anyone else 'cis'.

NiceGerbil · 06/09/2020 20:57

Not read the whole thread.

I agree with the point about spirituality. I had a conversation with a religious friend, I shared my idea that whether you have spiritual feelings or not is down to how you just are. I have none. She doesn't. We can't imagine how that feels for the other.

I have no doubt that some people have these feelings but it's not a good idea to base law on something that is intangible and unprovable.

The other thing with this is that as someone with a disability the mind being separate to the body/ wrong body thing pisses me off. Like anything else, you can't identify out of what you are no matter how much you may want to.

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 21:03

It doesn't make anyone else cis
What about those others that are though?
Like me?
Or the person in the article that you can't be arsed to read?
(Never thought I'd say that! Always from first hearing c * s on here thought it was offensive, but realise what it means now)
Just because you say you're not, that doesn't automatically mean noone else is!

midgebabe · 06/09/2020 21:14

It is offensive to assume gender

If people feel it's relevant to them fine

But don't assume others feel as you do, and don't assume that feeling has relevance beyond your own personal sphere

NiceGerbil · 06/09/2020 21:15

Everyone I've spoken to IRL has said they don't have strong internal feelings of gender.

I think there's a real issue here in the the conversation etc have been driven by trans people who buy definition do have a strong internal feeling of gender.

But have the rest of the population been asked? I think there may have been a big gap here.

Of course when middle aged women say 'i don't feel like a woman inside, I feel like a person' the answer is often that she feels so comfortable with her internal gender that she doesn't even notice it.

She is not allowed to self define as not cis, but no gender etc even though for others it's everyone is what they say they are. Instead she is told she doesn't know her own mind, and must accept the label someone else gives her.

That very telling.

Many women on here are trans according to stonewall umbrella. But for some reason their voices as part of the trans community are unwelcome.

NiceGerbil · 06/09/2020 21:17

Sorry for typos.

OldCrone · 06/09/2020 21:22

What is it like to be cs, Quaagars? Can you explain how you feel and how you know you are cs?

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 21:24

But don't assume others feel as you do, and don't assume that feeling has relevance beyond your own personal sphere

I haven't though, obviously not speaking for everyone but I've said you know your experience, what you are, and I know too.
We're not all the same and I accept that.
I don't get why you (general you, not you personally) just some dismiss as out of hand others as "not real because I don't know anyone who is therefore not happening"
When that's clearly not the case - there's people out there who aren't the same as me, and I accept they're there.

NiceGerbil · 06/09/2020 21:26

Accepting that some people have this feeling is not a problem for me.

Assuming that the vast majority of people have a 'strongly felt internal sense of gender' (which I read once) is a problem, no one actually knows.

And codifying it into law is a problem as well.

midgebabe · 06/09/2020 21:29

I find the idea that people are denying that other people exist a little too philosophical.

BlackWaveComing · 06/09/2020 21:41

God, this is so tedious.

There has been an insanely huge increase in girls' IDing as male. That's a fact. Its occuring in friendship groups. Social contagion is taking place. Older transmen - however many/few there are, and I know one so don't deny they exist - should be in the forefront of protecting these girls, only a tiny minority of whom are likely to maintain this identity into adulthood, from making T and surgery mediated irreversible changes to their bodies. They shouldn't be encouraging teens to foreclose on any identity, let alone a medicalized one.

Most people don't have a gender identity. A few people come to believe they do, and that's fine, but like religion, keep it to your home and places of worship. Just as society should not revolve around some ppls concept of a soul, nor should it revolve around this subjective, unproveable notion of a gender identity.

It's so insulting to be told there's a 'feeling of womanhood' that has its existence independent of the female body. Bullshit. So tired of this regressive rubbish.

BlackWaveComing · 06/09/2020 21:44

Also, so fucking tired of coming onto a feminism board to find posters goadily ignoring feminism and arguing for some weird kind of religious 'truth' to be an organising principle. Stop fucking with us. Come here, sure, and learn about feminism. But if you're an anti feminist, then go away and take your gendered soul nonsense with you. It's not on topic.

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 21:45

God, this is so tedious

What, hearing others experiences?
Is there not enough "yeah! All bollocks!" posts for you?

It's so insulting to be told there's a 'feeling of womanhood' that has its existence independent of the female body. Bullshit

Sorry to break this to you, but you aren't the be all and end all of everyone else.

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 21:46

then go away and take your gendered soul nonsense with you. It's not on topic

The entire thread is about an article of a man who says he is c * s and what that is to him.
Entirely on topic.
What thread did you think you were on? Or commenting on?

NiceGerbil · 06/09/2020 21:50

'Sorry to break this to you, but you aren't the be all and end all of everyone else.'

So how come everyone has to go along with the idea there's an internal sense of gender ID? To the point that it gets codified in law and loads of existing social and legal rules area changed to accommodate it?

If that's not one group being the 'be all and end all' then what is?

midgebabe · 06/09/2020 21:51

We are not hearing other people's experience. We are being told that we must credit a feeling of woman hood with some kind of significance in the context of women's rights

NiceGerbil · 06/09/2020 21:52

'The entire thread is about an article of a man who says he is c * s and what that is to him'

But when women talk about their experiences due to their sex they are told they are exclusionary, and also that it's wrong to link experiences due to female biology with their sex...

BlackWaveComing · 06/09/2020 21:53

@Quaagars

God, this is so tedious

What, hearing others experiences?
Is there not enough "yeah! All bollocks!" posts for you?

It's so insulting to be told there's a 'feeling of womanhood' that has its existence independent of the female body. Bullshit

Sorry to break this to you, but you aren't the be all and end all of everyone else.

I'm not interested in your experience. I'm interested in your argument. And so far as I can see in this thread, you haven't defined terms, let alone advanced a coherent argument as to why we should all be accepting of, adopting, and organising according to, concepts of gender identity.

So make an argument, or stop wasting our time.

NiceGerbil · 06/09/2020 21:55

The whole reason we need feminism / women's liberation is because around the world we are treated in certain ways because of our sex. And due to our sex, we have sex role enforced on us.

If you take away the root cause of our oppression as being a 'thing', if you deny women the ability to talk about what it means to be female in various societies, then you can't do feminism at all.

And that is important to some- the lambasting of 'gynocentric' feminism is well recorded.

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 22:02

We are not hearing other people's experience

Yes you are. Told you mine for a start.
The man in the OP, the one linked, told you his too.
What are they then?
@DidoLamenting linked to some too earlier in the thread, but they weren't real trans men? Or something

We are being told that we must credit a feeling of woman hood with some kind of significance in the context of women's rights

No, just that it isn't all there is for some people. If there is more for me, and this man in the article, stands to reason that there would be more for trans people too.
If you don't have that, then fair enough but it doesn't negate others who do.

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 22:05

If you take away the root cause of our oppression as being a 'thing'

Nobody's taking away biology though!
Being a woman, a massive part of being a woman is your biology.
Just because there's more to it for some, why does that mean biology suddenly isn't important?
It still is.

BlackWaveComing · 06/09/2020 22:05

Other people believe in alien abduction. The existence of irrational belief is not an argument for respecting that belief.
Why should feminists respect the belief that womanhood is a concept independent of matter that can reside in any body, and that this should be the principle around which society should organise?